Discussing ethic/moral/polical issues with chinese friends

[fluxs]

Hi,

this may in fact be a pretty dumb or even offending question to some of you, then let me apologize already right away, but I was wondering on how the other people here go about in discussing topics of morality, ethics and politics with their chinese friends.

Well, so here is what happened to me recently when I was having some good chinese friends over and we were making dinner together. I am not sure how, but somehow we got to speak of the wars in yugoslavia. Let's put this mildy, we had absolutely different ideas on this war, the reasons behind it and particularly concerning in how far the involvement of the west (e.g. US, UK, Germany via the NATO) was justified. I am not even particularly strong with world history and I dont want to say I am absolutely right. In fact, I don't really want to go into who is right or who is wrong here at all.

Honestly speaking I have seen a considerable number of... in lack for a more precise definition, I call it questions of morality, ethics and politics. Points where my views differed strongly from that of many friends I met in China (e.g. about Tibet, and many more. again without wanting to enter a debate on who is right and who is wrong).

What I wanted to know is how you guys deal with situations like these. I feel that I personally just somewhat try to avoid these topics. Or alternatively that I wonder on the effect of media and being brought up under different systems may be.

But also honestly, sometimes I wonder if I would be friends with someone who has a certain mindset if I met that person back home in the West. On the other hand it sounds ridiculous that I have two different sets of "moral guidelines" - one to apply to people I meet in China and a more strict one for people back home.

In any case, this has been on my mind for a bit, it would be nice to hear what other people think. If I have offended someone, please be so kind to disregard this post.

[caffeineaddict]

Generally, I try to stay out of abortion/religion/politics discussions with people who have extremely different backgrounds who I don't know very well. However, if I know them well enough I don't avoid discussing those topics with them, Chinese or not. I think being respectful or others' views and backing your arguments up with actual evidence instead of "I think X is evil fullstop" can lead to some very interesting discussions.

I'm taking history/international relations courses at university right now and there are students with a variety of backgrounds in my classes. It does get pretty 'interesting' when we discuss certain topics especially as we have a group of American students...and a group of Chinese students educated within China. Sometimes discussion gets heated but generally everyone presents their views with credible evidence and then we can have a constructive debate about it.

[adrianlondon]

I've had very interesting chats with young Chinese in Beijing about such subjects as Tibet, Taiwan, the economy, democracy, voting etc - all sorts of stuff. However, these are people I initially got to know over lighter conversation and who I know had either travelled abroad, or were aware of the world around them.

Of course, we didn't always agree on everything but in each case it was an intelligent conversation.

Contrast this with some of the crazies I've chatted with on the net who have just launched into uninformed arguments. Whether or not I agree with what they say, the logic they use to put their view across was just - well, odd. So much so, I've argued against them even if I agreed with them, simply because their logic was totally flawed.

Having said the above, I've had crazies chat with me from all around the world, so it's not really a Chinese thing ;) The main issue is that China is one of the few (only?) countries I've visited where (a) I've actually got chatting to people about in-depth stuff and (B) isn't a democracy. So, all in all, I've actually been impressed. Being from London, though, I've got an almost in-built ability to be cynical and avoid real life crazies.

[YuehanHao]

I think it is an interesting question. I also think of this as a particular case of something broader. I am often around people that I feel have significantly different world views than I (e.g., due to religion, race, age, politics, habits of consumption, educational backgrounds, etc.). In any interaction, there always is a dilemma as to how much we should focus on the common ground versus the differences. In my opinion, the solution depends on what your objective is in having the conversation.

I do not try to single out discussion with Chinese people for any reason, except that that was the focus of the first post. But when I spoke with friends from China about politics, my objectives were to have fun and to learn from what their views were and see what their reaction to my views were. It so happened my goal was not to reconcile our views or judge/criticize (although in some situations those goals could be worthwhile too). So I stated my views non-confrontationally and asked questions about their views (sometimes perhaps I got carried away and they may have been teases or questions with a basic structure of "do you really believe that... because ...?"), and I did have a lot of fun. I think we both learned from each others' views, and my friends tolerated me and my expression of different views and way of communicating with them. Around other people that were not so close friends, I often would not mention some of these topics, just because I didn't think it would be enjoyable to talk about them.

Some of the points about the importance of the media's influence, as well as that of traditional culture, I agree with. Americans or Europeans predictably grow up with a certain range of views, as do Chinese, with no less certainty than the babies of certain countries will one day adopt the established religion of that state. It is just a fact that, at present, American and Chinese views have significant differences, and those differences manifest themselves in essentially every person I meet. But I have doubts about the idea that Chinese friends may not satisfy as strict a test of moral guidelines as Western friends. By far, it is safer for me to reserve judgment on that question until the superior being comes down and tells us all certainly which point of view was more correct than the other on an absolute scale.

约翰好

[simonlaing]

I think you have to assess the person's access to information.

I know had either travelled abroad, or were aware of the world around them.

These are usually two groups and not always in these groups. People who have studied or worked abroad for more than 2 months. Also there are those that read foreign newspapers for one reason or another, often in international trade or fairly knowledgable party member.

If the person is not part of one of these groups their knowledge generally comes from the government media which usually has a one-sided slant to things and everything else is wrong. So politics and IR are off limits to these but social morality issues are ok. Things like Should a woman stay which a husband that visits brothels if they have a young child?

Should female managers be paid the same as male ones.

Asking the reasons for things they are saying . It can be interesting.

Realize that the Chinese values of harmony, in-group, large power distance and practicality make for some questions to be answered in different ways.

Also it helps if you let them know that you're not looking for a "right" answer just an opinion of one good way of looking at the situation is .

I think the conversations I have had with the few chinese that follow the news are interesting and enlightening. Good Luck.

Simon:)

[Lu]

I tend to avoid discussing such things, unless I know people well, and even then I try to be careful. If I don't, the conversation tends to end in annoyance, lost face, and frustration.

I also have different standards for Chinese people and western people, but I don't think that's wrong in any way. There's no law that says you have to agree with all of your friends, and while it's important to be able to discuss things with friends with a mindset similar to yours, it's also interesting to meet people who are very different.

[Senzhi]

First of all, it's extremely important that both parties are willing to accept each other's point of view (though not necessarily agreeing with it).

Else there's simply no point of discussion.

That said, I am, like many others, very wary about discussing sensitive subjects. But that doesn't mean I didn't have any interesting discussions, of which I learned from, and vice versa.

Of course I also had some discussions, of which I came up to the conclusion that I simply better had shut my mouth ... with tape.

So, practically, I'd wait until the other party would bring up the subject. Then I'd simply test how they'd feel talking about it. If I see they're looking for a genuine two-way discussion without 'right' nor 'wrong', I'd give it a shot.

The best way to do is with genuine friends or long-time (ex) students. Never with the occasional folks at the bar or lunch/dinner ...

[carlo]

I don't think access to foreign newspapers or studying abroad makes you open-minded. Some people who have learned foreign languages, spent time abroad, read extensively and mingle with foreigners all the time can learn to get defensive. Nothing is more frustrating than arguing with someone who thinks he knows everything about "East" and "West" and throws cliches at you like a machine gun. On the contrary folks with much less privileged backgrounds can be more curious and open to new ideas. Really hard to generalise.

A problem I have is that people with different backgrounds tend to have different interests. I can discuss about politics with friends all I want, the problem is that most of them couldn't care less if the human race was ruled by Klingons. They want to get rich.

With time you also learn to be aware of the cultural traps. For example, you know that when trying to convince someone of the validity of statement X, argument A doesn't work as well as it would back home, and you have to use argument B instead. You also learn how to phrase it in Chinese in a way that the other person will at least understand your point, if not accept it right away. It's hard work, but for me it's a basic part of language learning.

[hidden12345]

Wow, Carlo actually "gets" the Chinese. Respect.

I have found that when arguing a point with a Chinese person, and they make some ridiculous universal generalization about "Chinese people" compared with x, the best way to rebut is to show how that person's specific behavior counteracts that generalization. Because they feel that their own actions are representative of the massive Borg that is the Chinese people, severing that link is the only way to make them 觉悟过来了。Universal statements are the easiest to disprove: it only takes one counterexample; and the Chinese aren't very accustomed to qualifying their claims. Attack their connection to the rest of their people and you've conquered them. One Borg at a time.

[jeffofarabia]

Maybe one approach would be to try to learn what your Chinese friends think about politics, etc. Westerners often throw their opinions around without even bothering to learn about what others think. There are many differences between cultures, but one way to overcome them is through listening.

Take the issue of Tibet for example. Few people probably have asked a Chinese person why they are feel China is justified in being in Tibet. But there is quite a long history of interaction and conflict that gets overlooked when the West focuses solely on the aspect of contemporary human rights.

I am looking forward to taking this approach when I move to Shanghai in August. I didn't always take it when I lived in Beijing six years ago.

[wushijiao]

When I was a teacher at colleges in China, whenever we discussed any issues having to do with governance or policies (should the government spend more on public transport or spend more on building roads for private cars…) I’d always be sure to elicit different arguments and points of view, and then add to them if need be. That way, I’d try to get as many arguments as possible, while also critiquing their consequences and assumptions. I’d almost always not give my point of view, because many of the students would then try to parrot me.

I think this is generally a good strategy when discussing sensitive issues. De-personalize it. Stand back and look at a variety of different points of view. You can ask your friend, “what do people online tend to say about this?” (in other words, you can get him/her to present views without those views being attached to him/her).

Obviously, China has a nationalism that is strongly infused with memories of humiliation caused by the major powers, and there is always a need to keep that in mind. Also, I used to have a mainlander IR prof that said if you truly understand a country’s strategic interests, you’ll almost always be able to understand what they do in the UN and in international politics. In that sense, it’s worth your effort to learn more about China’s strategic interests, so that you can have informed conversations. Also, it’s good to know your own country’s strategic prerogatives, so that if your argument (based on liberal ideals or whatever) just happens to correspond to your country’s hardcore geo-strategic interests, you can at least acknowledge as much.

In the end, the keys are: genuinely listening to someone and responding politely to what they say, avoid stereotypes, and show genuine interest in their opinion and how they formed their opinion.

[zozzen]

In the end, the keys are: genuinely listening to someone and responding politely to what they say, avoid stereotypes, and show genuine interest in their opinion and how they formed their opinion.

that's right. And avoid trying to educate Chinese with any values or attempting to prove something when discussing these things before you know who he is. In my experience, it's not uncommon to see a guy who get offended by a single word, a phrase, a gesture or even by raising up these topics because they would interpret it as "an intervention on China's internal affairs".

[carlo]

I used to have a mainlander IR prof that said if you truly understand a country’s strategic interests, you’ll almost always be able to understand what they do in the UN

I couldn't help smile at this, as IMHO most people (including myself) don't have much of a clue about their own country's strategic interests -- academics tend to get a biased perception of the importance of the subject they teach. One could argue that culture, history, economics or value systems all equally contribute to define what a group perceives as its "strategic interests".

Anyway I think I get the idea: members of a group share values and perspectives (a 'culture') with other group members, and understanding that culture is helpful in communicating effectively. You can also see it as a negotiation. As an effective negotiator, you should always be aware of two things: (1) what the group's values and interests are, and (2) what sets apart the individual from the rest of the group. If you fail to understand either, you're likely to run headlong into a wall.

I agree that respect and objectivity are the two key words here. Not just as manipulative strategies to "win" arguments, but as ways to communicate effectively.