Rant about native speakers

[Hofmann]

怨始

In the language learning community, native speakers somehow have a special position of authority. This is understandable, as they speak the language of concern from birth, and were immersed in it as they grew up. One may be tempted to think of any native speaker of a language into a reliable standard. However, native speakers are not necessary good references. You know how many native English speakers say "nucular?" What if they were someone's standard?

More into the focus of these forums, you know how many people who claim to speak Standard Mandarin actually do?

怨終

[Scoobyqueen]

I agree. I often correct my German colleagues' German for fun, but I dont think they see the funny side of it

[flameproof]

In the language learning community, native speakers somehow have a special position of authority. This is understandable,

Not for me. A native speaker usually does not make a good teacher for the simple reason that the person never actually learned the target language as a 2nd language. A non-native speaker, which learned the language as adult, will have a much understand what difficulties a learner faces.

Talking about Mandarin, I always wonder how many Chinese speak Mandarin as their native language. Must be around 5% or less. All locals I know speak it as 2nd language. I never met any Chinese that spoke Mandarin as first language (to be fair, I didn't ask all, but the topic was often raised).

[daofeishi]

Seconded. What also ticks me off is how native speakers, especially native English speakers, often are really quick to judge how good someone is at a language based on his/her accent alone - and treat him/her accordingly. Before I had absorbed the local accent and spoke with a clear European lilt, many Americans dumbed down their language when talking to me - almost as if they were talking to a preschooler. That was after having used English every day for several years, having no problems with understanding any written/audiovisual material or with expressing myself, and having gotten verbal/written test scores in percentiles even natives struggle to place into. I was exasperated by feeling left outside the "real" English speaking community. I wonder if people with speech impediments feel the same way.

[Lu]

Flameproof: where all those Chinese in HK, where you are now? I think for all of China, the percetage is a bit higher than that.

I agree, native speakers often get things wrong themselves. But the people who correct them should be other native speakers, not us who learned it as a second language, not because we're always wrong, but because of face. This does not only go for Chinese people.

[renzhe]

You basically said it all.

I find native speakers invaluable when it comes to nuances, style and overall "gut feeling" of how to say things. People who have internalised a language at a very high level after many years of studying also fall into this category.

But for certain questions a learner might face from a learner's perspective, it really helps to have a teacher who has either experienced these issues, or has seen these issues very often and understands them, and most importantly, can offer solutions and convey them clearly.

Many times, native speakers cannot do this efficiently. Some can, but many vastly overestimate their ability to do this. I know I can't do this for my mother tongue effectively, although I like to think that I can speak it at a hight level.

P.S. I love it when Americans correct me for using British English

[Scoobyqueen]

Additionally, if someone has been a native speaker "originally" and have moved away to a new country in which another language is spoken, many are no longer able to detect some nuances anymore and the use of certain newer expressions.

I use a lot of translators and although they are supposed to be native of the language they are translating into, I can tell they have been living (in this case) in Germany for "too long". Some tend to use expressions that are a direct translation from German but which strictly speaking do not exist in a directly translated form. Does that mean they have lost their native instincts, I wonder?

but because of face

Why? You can do that with a twinkle in your eye and a lot of charm and get away with it.

On top of that it can win you extra credibility on the linguistic front.

Edited March 27, 2009 at 12:24 PM by gougou

[renzhe]

Translating is an ugly business, and it can sometimes be very difficult to reformulate a sentence in a way that conveys the same meaning, and has the same feel to it, but is in the spirit of the target language. Sometimes people give up and translate into something that sounds strange, but is understandable.

And Denglish is a category of its own. There is a type of English spoken only by Germans among themselves, and if you listen to it long enough, you can get used to the phrasing.

[msittig]

It is precisely because a native speaker would say "nucular" that you should study from a native speaker. A person who learned ESL would never say that. Your not knowing "nucular" will permanently tag you as an English language learner, rather than as an English language speaker.

[renzhe]

When I was going to a high school in Canada, some of the students were saying things like "I should of gave it to you". Many of them wrote it too.

Languages do change with use and new things become accepted, but sometimes wrong is just wrong, even if a native speaker insists it's right.

[wushijiao]

It is precisely because a native speaker would say "nucular" that you should study from a native speaker. A person who learned ESL would never say that. Your not knowing "nucular" will permanently tag you as an English language learner, rather than as an English language speaker.

Hehe...I was thinking something along those lines. It's the idioms, slang, and mispronunciations that native speakers unconsciously say that makes them so valuable!

Or maybe I’m just saying that because I grew up calling that destructive device by its Bushian name!

[randall_flagg]

Renzhe, are you German or is German a foreign language to you? Or is it a combination of the two? Amazing how many people know German on the forums. My gut feeling is that is the biggest language on the forums (apart from English and Chinese, of course).

[randall_flagg]

Or maybe I’m just saying that because I grew up calling that destructive device by its Bushian name!

I would call it Simpsonian name!

[renzhe]

It's my third language, but I've been living in Germany for a number of years now, so I'm pretty comfortable with it.

[randall_flagg]

It's my third language, but I've been living in Germany for a number of years now, so I'm pretty comfortable with it.

Good for you!

[jbradfor]

Why? You can do that with a twinkle in your eye and a lot of charm and get away with it.

You can if you're female and cute. For me, however, not so lucky.....

[Lu]

Languages do change with use and new things become accepted, but sometimes wrong is just wrong, even if a native speaker insists it's right.

I couldn't agree more.

And I would never say nucular. I'd rather make ESL mistakes than the mistakes of people who don't speak their own language well.

[jade-]

Hofmann wrote:

...you know how many people who claim to speak Standard Mandarin actually do?

Just for my curiosity, in your opinion, what do you think we actually do?

I know what we do from my personal experience: we gather on a web site to intentionally use the wrong homonyms for fun during our discussions.

I think the big advantage of a native speaker is: no matter how grammatically wrong his/her sentences are, they can be understood by other native speakers. This does not apply to a non-native speaker. I have seen many times the native English speakers made grammar and spelling errors in their English, but if the other native speakers did not point them out, neither did I. Languages are primarily used for communication, as long as the sentences can be understood, everyone is happy.

By the way, I like your usages of 怨始 and 怨終, it is a clever way to make them up regarding your topic here.

[dalaowai]

As there are so many dialects and regional varieties of any language, it is a bit frustrating when people want to "correct" other's "mistakes".

I speak a regional dialect of french as my mother language and i always get "corrected" by other french people. In some cases, people were intrigued and thought that it was awesome that we had our own pronounciation and words that weren't in the "official" french language. At the end of the day, it adds spice and uniqueness to a person and represents the region that their from.

I can't imagine a world without accents and different ways of saying things. It would be bland and boring.

@daofeishi, I know exactly how you feel, it happens to me with Chinese people too. I've had people look me straight in the eye and say, 我。。。讲话。。。你。。。。听。。。懂。。。。吗？ Thanks for enunciating!

[leigao]

Guten Tag! Looks like I'm no the only who speaks English & Chinese and dabbles in German. Took it for three years in highschool, got confused with all the gender stuff and not really interested to pick it up again.

I guess growing up speaking both languages I never had the feeling that I was being discriminated against... I can speak, read, write in both languages, but neither of them particular well. I guess that's what you give up being bilingual and choose to major in Math