Newbie looking for helpful advice

[ebond007]

My situation in brief:

I am a 25-year-old male. Married. Both the wife and I graduated from a local university in Texas in 2007, she with a degree in History and teaching certification, I with a degree in English and several years experience tutoring ESL for my university. We have also both spent roughly the last 6+ years studying traditional Wu Shu. Neither of us currently has TESOL certification, but it's on the "to do" list.

Shortly after graduation, my father took very ill with a heart condition, and we put our plans on hold to stay in the area and be near him. Sadly, he passed away last year. Now, after dealing with the affairs of his passing, we are trying to get back on with our original plan: to travel abroad and teach.

The problem is that we have very little idea where to get started reliably. Through internet research, I've learned a great deal about the multitude of scams and "language mills" that milk idealistic recruits for all they're worth. Obviously, we're trying to avoid that. We're also trying to find a location where we can both be employed (again, obviously). Outside of the classroom, we hope to become fluent in Mandarin, find a good Kung Fu teacher, and of course see the country. (Yes, a lot of aspirations, but what's life for?)

Anyway, I have one broad question, and one very specific one, that I was hoping you kind folks could help us with:

1. In general, is there any "insider" advice you could offer to folks in our situation?

2. In specific, I have a great concern about the monetary situation and the exchange rate. I'm certainly not under any "get rich quick" illusions--this is just a dream job for us and we're prepared to "live lean" to achieve it. However, at some point down the road, I expect we'll begin thinking of a family. Who knows: we might wind up staying in China and never coming home. Or perhaps the experience will lead us down other avenues of employment. If so, great. But I'm very worried that if we ever decide to move back to the states, the pay rate and exchange rate for the money we'll have been making will add up to scarcely a pittance, and then we'll be wandering around, several years older and well past when most of our "peers" have established themselves in a career, and without the savings to show for our time spent or the foundation upon which to start a secure family life. Does anyone have any insight into the matter?

Thanks so much for any help you kind people can offer.

[roddy]

1. The only thing is to do full due diligence on any organization you are looking at - be it company, university, agency, private school - and at the end of it make an informed decision. In the first instance try to limit yourself to a six month contract. Even if that doesn't work out well you'll be on the ground to look for better opportunities, and you'll have a much clearer idea of what you are looking for. Six months of suffering is character-building, anyway. You'll need to make some strategic decisions on where you want to teach - major city like Beijing or Shanghai, provincial capital, blah blah; and what type of school - university (less pay, less hours, potentially more rewarding), or private school (better money, more of a factory-feel).

2. There's potential to send fairly significant chunks of money back home if you can get yourself some well paid work (either as your main job, or privately). Once you've decided what city or type of city you're looking at you can get an idea of average salaries, potential for private teaching, cost of living, and figure out what you could save. If you stay here for several years and then move home and change career, then yes, you're going to be at a disadvantage in that sense. People change career all the time though, plus you will have those fluent Chinese skills to show off.

[whereishunter]

For question 1. I would work in a university or public school. As you work less hours (get paid less) but it gives you more time to do other things. And if you want to make more $$ just find some part-time work.

Location, I would choose something that has not many westerns and start there. But the great thing about China is that if you don't like where you are just change job/location. There are lots of great cities and jobs out there, just a matter of going and having a look for yourself.

As for a TESOL certificate, I personally think you should spend your money elsewhere. As there is nothing like on the job training!!!

As for question 2. Don't come to China go to Korea as you will make a lot more money doing the same thing. But I think the Chinese experience is a lot more interesting!! (And I have lived in both countries)

My five cents…. Good luck

[ebond007]

Thank you both for your replies. I'm doing my best to do my research, but starting from ground-level it's a bit hard to know whether what you're looking at is right or not. Still, doing my best.

As for the main question about monetary savings, as I said, China is the goal. It's the culture we've dedicated a large part of our academic and personal lives to, and it's where we want to be. And I think we both accept that better monetary options may lie elsewhere, but there's something to be said for doing and being around what you love. Again, not looking to get rich, but I don't want to look back in five or six years and see that while we may be doing alright in China, if we head back to the U.S. we'll be paupers.

[boubou]

Having worked for a year and a half in China, I went from getting scammed with a fake (yes FAKE) working visa stamped in my passport, fake working papers, getting arrested and working in a sweat shop called an ESL language training school... To say the truth, I've never had a better time in my life :-) After being arrested, I sat down with some friendly police officers who gave me a 101 law for foreigners course and how to stay out of trouble in china 101. Since then, I've been doing pretty good. A few tips I could give are this:

Don't accept if someone says to come over on a Business or tourist visa, odds are, they can't really change your visa once your there, hence working illegally...

You should arrive on a 30 days Z visa that will be changed into a residence permit once you settle in at the school. Once you have your residence permit, make sure the school gives you your FEC (Foreign Experts Certificate) It's a little red booklet with your picture, also your ID to have on you while you are in China. It states very clearly that you MUST have it in your possession, so if the school says they have to keep it, tell them you'll be asking the local police station if it's true... They'll give it to you. It's yours to keep while you're working and it's the proof you need if ever you need to go to the SAFAE because you're having contract issues (I'm not saying this to scare you but to warn you, I'm giving you the worst case scenario here .. )

Money wise, Universities pay less but give you more free time, language schools pay more but give you a lot less free time. You can also get a 15 or 20 hour contract with a language school, it pays better than a university but gives you plenty of free time to learn other things.. but if you plan on living a good life, learning mandarin and wushu, you can't expect to save much before going back home. At any rate, if you do plan on staying more than one year, you could have fun the first couple of years and then work full time with a good salary which would help you settle back down in the states... it's all really relative.

[gato]

Again, not looking to get rich, but I don't want to look back in five or six years and see that while we may be doing alright in China, if we head back to the U.S. we'll be paupers.

It sounds like money is a big concern for you. Teaching English at a Chinese university, you might earn 4000-5000 yuan per month (equal to about US$700). After you have some experience, teaching at a private school, you might be able to earn twice that.

As for if that's enough, it's a very personal decision. You just have look at the numbers and see if it's right for you and your wife.

[Lingjian23]

As far as money goes, you might never make as much as you can back home, but you have to look at it in terms of how much you can save. I no longer teach English but I remember one month I worked 25 hours and made nearly 15,000 RMB -- around $2000. Nothing special for back home, but considering that my expenses were less than $1000 a month (and could have been far less if I was more careful), that means more than $1000 in the bank per month. Not bad.

That maybe isn't average -- I had two very well-paying jobs that I landed through blind luck. But you can definitely live a very decent lifestyle if you eat, live and play local, and still manage to save a decent amount of money.

My advice -- watch your alcohol and taxi spending. I find my foreigner friends that have money problems usually spend tons of money on expensive alcohol and take taxis everywhere they go. Drink local beer and take the subway or bus (or bike if it convenient) and you'll find you can save a lot of money. Foreign restaurants also eat up a lot of money and it can be hard to find decent foreign grub anyway.

Public universities are probably good ways to start out. You can live decently and have lots of free time to explore your surroundings. After some time you might consider taking on part-time jobs at ESL training schools to earn more cash (though watch out, I think this is sometimes against university contracts, though I know many people do it secretly).

[SirDude]

So 007, what did you and your wife decide on?

I'm not a teacher, (nor do I play one on TV :roll) but I have been asking a lot of these same questions about myself. I am 40 years old, and since I got hurt and needed to change careers, I ask that "will I look back 5-6 years from now and see that I should have been at a different level in my career." question too.

Well, I will answer your question this way, in 1996 I stopped doing what I loved to do (Rock climbing instructor) because it didn't pay more then a few dollars a week. Really, $10 / week, free gear, etc, but no money. So I started my own business, quickly climbed up the pay scale to over $200 / hour, yes, that's in US dollars! Ask me how much of that I have to my name at the end of 2009?

Honest answer, less then $1000 US in the bank. No, I wasn't into drugs, fancy cars, homes, etc, just a couple of bad things happen all at once and you (anyone) will find themselves starting all over again.

Do you know what I learned from that past 14 years? No matter how much you try to plan ahead, "sh*t happens!"

All those people you are worried about passing you by or comparing your (future) self to, will be the same people who will be sitting in my seat at 40 years old saying, "man, I wish I could have done what 007 did."

Who knows, you may get to China, stay there for one month and say this is not for us, bye! OR, you might be there one day and come into a job, business idea, etc and end up making a killing and come back to the US richer then the people you went to college with.

Other points to think about, going to a place like China, and living on the cheap will teach you a couple of things that most younger people don't understand until it's (almost) too late.

1) It will teach you to really / truly know the meaning of a dollar, RMB in this case, or "saving for a rainy day." Something most Americans don't start thinking about until after they bring kids into their lives or have some kind of down-fall like I did. I'm proof that you can't not over plan, it's Murphy's law, if it can happen, it will.

2) Living there will teach you about what is truly important to you and your wife. If the money (or lack of it) becomes a problem, you will know that you need to move back or find better employment. If you find yourself not thinking about money, then you will be better off then many people back here in the states.

3) (this is something I hope to learn in China) It's "how little can you live with and still be happy?" I have never been one to buy into the "keep up with the Jones"

(***side note, who are the "Jones" in China? "Wangs"? Not trying to offend anyone just asking?) but too many people think they need a 10,000 square foot home to be happy. Does keeping up with or "being" the Jones really make a person happy or happier then the person living off of $15,000 / year?

Anyway, I hope since we haven't heard from you, that you and your wife are already living happily in China and doing what you enjoy and not worrying about making the green.

[anonymoose]

I'm very worried that if we ever decide to move back to the states, the pay rate and exchange rate for the money we'll have been making will add up to scarcely a pittance, and then we'll be wandering around, several years older and well past when most of our "peers" have established themselves in a career, and without the savings to show for our time spent or the foundation upon which to start a secure family life.

I guess people have different views on this, but this was what essentially limited my English teaching experience to one year.

Some people care more about the "here and now", and it is true that on most English-teaching wages, you can have a pretty comfortable lifestyle whilst in China.

On the other hand, some people like to plan more for the future, and I think what you said is essentially true. On an English-teaching salary, you may well be able to save quite a large proportion of your earnings (depending on your lifestyle, you may be able to save substantially more than half of what you earn), but going back to the west with it, it will still not amount to very much.

As for being behind your peers, well, even in the west, some people fritter away all they earn, and still have nothing after a few years. But assuming you'd live frugally whether you're in the US or China, then I think you'd be able to save a lot more in the US than in China on an absolute basis.

So, in summary, I think your concern is well-founded, and is something that you should consider carefully. (Anyway, I still recommend coming out here, even if only for a short time, as the experience itself is priceless.)

[Lu]

(***side note, who are the "Jones" in China? "Wangs"? Not trying to offend anyone just asking?)

The Zhous, of course :-)

[ArthurBorges]

Get a government school as your primary employer; that will leave you lots of free time to moonlight in private schools, which tend to mess folks around too much when they are your primary employer.

Believe nobody who tells you he can convert your L tourist visa to a Z work visa after your arrival: in 98% of cases, you will be believing a lie.

You will be able to save easily: accommodation and utilities are free and the salary is pure disposable income. Compare offers at www.daveseslcafe.com.

Pay no agent to find a job: honest agencies charge the employer, not you. Also be sure your contract is with the school, not the agent.

Expect to spend about CNY 1,000/pers/mo. on food and daily necessities as a bachelor. If you're cooking at home, make it CNY 1,500 for two. After that, it all depends on how much beer you drink (CNY 3.00/65cl Tsingtao at the grocer's but CNY 10 to 15 in a bar), smoke (ciggies start at CNY 2.50/pack) and like to wine & dine (McD cheeseburgers go for CNY 6 or 7). Bananas go for CNY 1.50/lb.; strawberries were CNY 5/lb.this morning.

If you need Western goodies, expect to pay them at Western prices -- there are Walmart, Metro and Carrefour hypermarkets for that in every provincial capital now, plus a few smaller cities.

The current USD/CNY crossrate is USD 1.00=CNY 6.83. There are rumors the yuan will upvalue this year by about 5% -- the more it upvalues, the more dollars you'll get when you sell your yuan.

I wouldn't worry about being unable to save if I were you right now.