Qigong

[holyman]

i wouldnt want to say which type cos all these are not scientifically proven. we are all doing trials only. i dont want anyone to come back and say, hey, thats a hoax. anyway i'm not in agreement with all the different types that my father practiced, only some. to me some of them are outright bluffs so i think its inappropriate to mention them in public.

just bear in mind that in chinese martial arts it consists of 2 main parts that is dependent on each other, the core and the application. qigong, if it exist, is the core, whereas different styles are the applications. in chinese its called 体(ti, 本体, 主体, or core) and 用(yong, 应用, or application). one have to be trained in both to master martial arts. in japanese martial arts they usually differentiate the soul of martial arts into 3 parts, 心, 技, 体, or heart(mindset), skills(application) and core. they are more or less the same thing.

[badboy]

i wouldnt want to say which type cos all these are not scientifically proven...to me some of them are outright bluffs

Sounds to me like you are bluffing. So what if it's not scientifically proven? Tell us anyway.

Just because science hasn't proved it doesn't mean squat. Science is not perfect, and currently is not capable of proving everything that exists in the universe.

qigong, if it exist...

Don't understand this statement. Qigong is a form of exercise practiced by many, and therefore definitely exists. If you are referring to qi as energy within the body, that exists also, as you can simply feel the sensation. So I don't know why you would question something that you must have experienced yourself.

[shibo77]

I don't practise it, but my grandfather does. I just like to read about it and gain some knowledge from it.

-Shibo

[holyman]

Sounds to me like you are bluffing. So what if it's not scientifically proven? Tell us anyway.

Just because science hasn't proved it doesn't mean squat. Science is not perfect, and currently is not capable of proving everything that exists in the universe.

its for safety purpose i put in that line, bcos no.1 it doesnt work everytime or on everyone, and no.2 we dont have a universally accepted definition for qigong. even among the masters themselves they still have different understanding of what is and what isnt qigong. just to play safe in case someone try to accuse me of promoting superstition and witchcrafts.

to me being scientifically proven is probably quite simple: given the similiar conditions and provided with necessary equipments the tests or phenomenons can be repeatedly carried out by anyone with sufficient knowledge and techniques in that field, and showing similiar results at the end. we know that if we pass electricity thru water we get hydrogen and oxygen, anyone can do that with a dry cell with 2 wires and some water. it is 'scientifically proven'. but is taking something out of an enclosed bottle without physical contact , or maybe doing handstanding on 2 fingers considered as 'qigong' techniques, i am not pretty sure. cos at least i havent seen one in action, and not everyone can repeat it. maybe u can tell us what is ur understanding of 'scientifically proven' before u spat on it. since science is not 'perfect' and still unable to prove everything, we put a question mark on those unproven ones and try to find out, thats the spirit of science, instead of trying to boast about what u actually dont know.

Don't understand this statement. Qigong is a form of exercise practiced by many, and therefore definitely exists. If you are referring to qi as energy within the body, that exists also, as you can simply feel the sensation. So I don't know why you would question something that you must have experienced yourself.

that means, for those who believed it exists. just setting a baseline for discussion. for those who doesnt think it exists, this discussion is not for u, or in other words, u dont have to take this topic seriously if u dont think qigong is real.

[badboy]

Please, give me a break. Here you are telling us you don't even know that qigong exists, then you say it's for "safety purposes" that you cannot even tell us what kinds of qigong you are talking about.

It's okay for you to know this stuff, but not us, because we're the unenlightened masses.

I did not "spit" on science. I said that science cannot prove everything, and lack of scientific proof does not mean something does not exist. Do you think science has perfect instruments for measuring everything? Do you think that, say, in 1,000 years that science will be advanced way beyond what we know today? I bet that in 1,000 years scientists will look back at today's methods and think they were totally primitive. You make a lot of assumptions in the name of "science".

As for "boasting" about what I don't know - I can feel qi in my body, and have been able to for the last 8 years, therefore I KNOW it exists. The intensity of that feeling varies with length of qigong practice, sexual activity, and diet. I do not need a scientist to tell me what I already know, but perhaps you do.

holyman, have you ever felt qi in your body? Somehow I doubt it...

[holyman]

Please, give me a break. Here you are telling us you don't even know that qigong exists, then you say it's for "safety purposes" that you cannot even tell us what kinds of qigong you are talking about.

It's okay for you to know this stuff, but not us, because we're the unenlightened masses.

u still dont get what i mean do u? personal experiences arent universal. lets say my father and i could transfer what u so-called qi to each other when standing 3 meters apart after practising for, say 6mths. so i tell everyone i met, 'hey, qi really exists'. but another guy came along and he cant do that or doesnt feel it at all after 6 mths, then what am i gonna do? call myself a liar? so its better keep it to myself in public until there is a good method to prove it, plus a good method to train, a good way of identifying what is real and what is fake, then we comment on it.

we are trying on this stuff, certain methods does have a very high rate of success, like when we use it to cure certain diseases or illness, asthma, early cancer, paralysed due to spinal injuries, heart problems, feats, migrain(sp?) etc etc, but some only have a low success rate, so it is not safe and its irresponsible to announce it as positive and working. besides u cant tell what is real and what isnt, so there is a chance some might make use of that ambiguity to cheat on others. remember master hai'deng in china during the 80's who said he can do handstanding on 2 fingers? he even went as far as making a documentary about it. but it turned out now that it was a fake. what can u say about it?

so far there is no proper equipment to test for qi. the only once we were definitely positive about it is in a hospital trying to save a dying man, but that was the only once and who knows it might fail on another? he had all the sensors and instruments connected to him, so we are able to see the changes as we work on it(the docs gave up on him and suggest we prepare fo his 'afterwards matters'). so we tried... heartbeat returned to normal, ard 70+, blood pressure returned to normal from a low 70+ to 130+, his kidneys started working and he passed unrine after stopping for 2 days. the best part is that he opened up his eyes after 3 days lying unconscious in bed, and he smiled at us. but in the end we still failed to save him. cos after physical contacts we simply feel our energy being drained out and we suddenly felt like standing in a freezer. we cycled among six or seven of us but after 3 hrs we are all exhausted and there's nothing we can do except watching him die. so i.m.o. the best thing now is keep it low profile. if i cannot be responsible for what i said then its best i keep quiet about it, or i put down limitations to it.

and for the last part, u can doubt whatever u want, i hold no responsibility for u and its not my obligation to prove anything to u. u can carry on with what u believe, no worries.

[badboy]

but another guy came along and he cant do that or doesnt feel it at all after 6 mths, then what am i gonna do? call myself a liar?

No, you're not gonna call yourself a liar. Probably in such cases the person has not built up enough internal energy to feel it, or perhaps is being undisciplined in sexual activity and ejaculating too much, and therefore his qi is too weak, or he just has not been trained enough.

I do not understand your obsession with having to "prove" this stuff scientifically if you can feel this yourself. You are so worried about being called a liar rather than sticking up for what you believe in simply because science hasn't developed an instrument capable of proving the existence of qi. Get some cojones man.

and for the last part, u can doubt whatever u want, i hold no responsibility for u and its not my obligation to prove anything to u. u can carry on with what u believe, no worries.

You see, this is why I have doubts about what you are telling us. It was a simple yes or no question, but you still refuse to give a concrete answer. Yeah okay you don't have to prove anything to me and that's your right, but what's the big deal? I say qi exists because I can feel it, why are you so afraid of making the same statement?

Also, Bamboo Grove simply asked what kinds of qigong your father taught. He did not ask you to go into detail of how to do these kinds of qigong, but then you go on about "safety" and other crap. We can't hurt ourselves if we don't know the actual method and it's not as if you are endorsing such training by simply mentioning the kinds of qigong your father teaches.

[roddy]

All organisations and individuals associated with Chinese-forums.com (including, but not limited to Roddy, the webhosting company, all members and the monkey) accept no responsibility or liability for any injury, damage or loss of any kind that could be caused by holyman revealing exactly what kind of Qigong his family practices.

I'm sure everyone's interested. Given what you've said already, people will either be thinking 'rubbish' or 'wow' so you might as well fill in the details.

Roddy

[holyman]

its not a matter of sticking up for something or not. i say what i knew and i dont say what i'm not sure of. afterall one cannot be responsible for somebody else's health or life and this got nothing to do with mere enthusiasm or zeal or sticking up for something u 'believe'. 'believe' means u dont know but u think its there. do u 'believe' there's a nickel in my hand right now? no matter u 'believe' there is one in my hand or not the fact is u dont really know, u are simply making a guess. a lot of people think qigong is interesting but how many knew about the dangers that came along with it? nothing in this world came along with all advantages and no weakness.

how do u know u wont hurt urself when practising qigong? u havent seen enuff about people who went the wrong way or got cheated by others. there was this guy who invented the 'hexiang zhuang' in mainland, or 'crane style'(a kind of waterbird, not the cranes at construction sites) qigong, which we think is a rather effective qigong and we practised it. but in the end that guy who invented it was found diagnosed with cancer some yrs back(and probably dead by now). can u explain? i remembered dong huling, a famous taiji master(son of famous yang style taiji master dong yingjie), got diabates in his later yrs and eventually had his legs severed. what's a taiji master gonna do without legs? isnt taiji supposed to help maintain one's health? have u seen people went insane after a qigong training? isnt qigong suppose to improve ur health? there are a lot of such incidents and u cant tell when is that gonna happen. so who say martial arts or qigong wont hurt u? a wrong move will make u regret for ur whole life. think twice b4 u decide to 'stick up' for something. its not just a matter of having balls or not.

[badboy]

Been doing qigong for 8 years now, hasn't killed me yet.

And how about Jim Fixx, the runner in the US who wrote a book on running, then dropped dead of a heart attack? Does that mean running isn't good for you?

Okay, nobody exercise then. Ever. You might die. 'Nuff said.

[holyman]

thats the problem. sports and exercise is good, but a lot of athletes dont really care about being healthy, just winning or breaking records. they overdone things and in the end they injured themselves. many of them have broken knee caps, fractured bones, muscle tear or other injuries from training. the same can be applied to qigong. and the dangerous part is in qigong u dont know when u are actually overdoing it. u think its a great exercise, a great sport, but didnt take precaution about the possible side effects or dangers, then there u go. to be frank surviving 8 yrs of qigong training is nothing. after 20yrs and i am still here saying there can be side effects, and i suggest those who are interest should learn about the do's and dont's from the trainers b4 trying out. those who say nothing to be careful of are probably ignorant. anyway its funny that after 8 yrs u still havent realise that there can be side effects. dunno what u have been doing.

[badboy]

those who say nothing to be careful of are probably ignorant. anyway its funny that after 8 yrs u still havent realise that there can be side effects. dunno what u have been doing.

holyman, come on. Was gonna leave it at that but your post is ridiculous.

Never said there was nothing to be careful of. Show me where I said this.

Never said I wasn't aware of side effects. Show me where I said that.

You make a lot of assumptions. Either that, or you need new glasses

And, for the record, I am aware there can be side effects from qigong training. You think I don't know this?

You wouldn't tell a fat overweight person to start running 5 miles a day either. That could have pretty bad side effects. Doesn't mean running isn't good for you if you know what you're doing, and what your body can handle.

I'll leave it at that.

[xiaozhu]

(give me an exact definition of gravity in any human language).

The force of attraction between two bodies (matter).

And how about Jim Fixx, the runner in the US who wrote a book on running, then dropped dead of a heart attack? Does that mean running isn't good for you?

A lot of people get confused about this, I can say with certainty that the heart attack would be caused by his lifestyle. To much fitness training strains some of the arteries connected to the heart untill they become tight and hard, heart attack follows. Excersise doesn't equal health, good diet = health, only then can excersise be used to increase health and develop fitness. Even then you have to be careful not to overdo it as it is very easy to burn out, and unfortunaltely I speak from experience.

Qigong as I understand it is breathing excersises that increase circulation and strengthen the organs. I don't enjoy doing it so I don't do it. I think holyman is quite right that qigong training can have bad effects on someone if kept unchecked, I also think that due to the nature of the development in qigong training that it would be harder to notice yourself especially as it develops the mind in a less straight forward way to fitness or martial arts training.

Badboy don't take offence, as none is intended, but from your posts which are quite aggressive; there is a chance that your qigong training needs to be evaluated as these are not the thoughts of a balanced man.

[badboy]

To much fitness training strains some of the arteries connected to the heart untill they become tight and hard, heart attack follows. Excersise doesn't equal health, good diet = health, only then can excersise be used to increase health and develop fitness

Now, tell me something I don't know.

but from your posts which are quite aggressive; there is a chance that your qigong training needs to be evaluated as these are not the thoughts of a balanced man

Give an example. Bet you can't.