Beijing really the best place to study?

[Ether]

A general consensus that I've found is that if you're going to learn Mandarin, go to Beijing because you'll have more opportunities to use the language outside the classroom.

But after reading this and other forums, I can't help but feel that compared to other smaller cities where (yes there might be a local dialect) Beijing doesn't seem as appealing.

Beijing has bad air (which I've experienced in Seoul), way more people, traffic is dangerous, expensive (not by US standards but when compared to other cities), etc

So.... to those who've studied in Beijing, after recounting your experience there - if you were given a chance to do it over again, would you stay in Beijing? or wished you would've taken your chances elsewhere?

I guess as I am writing this post, I'm thinking of Dalian, Yanti, Xia'men, etc as better places to go than Beijing/Shanghai?

Furthermore, I'm hearing that since level of instruction seems to be fairly similar and that the brand name of prestigious schools (tsinghua, beida) really don't reflect their language program.

I did a year stint in Tokyo at International Christian University and as much as I learned in that year, I wished that I would've been away from so many Westerners. Yeah, people might say that's an issue of "how much you put effort into your language studies (ie: not speaking in English, hanging out w/ Japanese)" and that's true to some degree, but my school just had Japanese kids that could speak good English, period. So it was a lot more natural and comfortable to end up speaking lots of English in Tokyo. Even so, my Japanese proficiency is way up, and it was a great experience.

Hence, I think being away from Beijing (where yes there are Westerners) would be a GOOD thing.

Sorry about the long post, but I'm confused/excited about going to China. Thanks in advance.

[imron]

Hence, I think being away from Beijing (where yes there are Westerners) would be a GOOD thing.

What makes you think that other places in China that are well suited to foreigners wanting learn Chinese will be without westerners?

[roddy]

I don't think there's any consensus on Beijing being the best place. Plenty of people will tell you the number of foreigners, English menus, etc, will do you no good at all.

[Xiao Kui]

A few yrs ago i would never have recommended Kunming b/c of the whole local dialect thing, but in recent yrs KM has attracted lots of Chinese from other regions, and newcomers and locals alike are being forced to use Putonghua more and more.

I still hear plenty of Kunminghua, but I overhear conversations in Mandarin on the street on a regular basis as well, which was rare 10 yrs ago when I first moved here. I wonder if similar changes are taking place in other cities as well. Recently I heard that the current migration of rural Chinese to cities will be the largest migration in human history to date. Something like 300 million people! It seems that this trend coupled with the trend of more and more Chinese moving to different regions for business and employment opportunities will cause a great increase in the use of spoken Mandarin in any Chinese city. Though the Northeastern cities such as Beijing and Dalian will probably always offer the most daily opportunities to practice one's Mandarin, it seems like location is much less of an issue than it was 5-10 yrs ago.

BTW, I'm not recommending KM as we have plenty of foreigners here already but just giving it as an example. Of course you are welcome here, but if you want to be original don't pick KM.

[Lu]

Kunming, Dalian and Harbin are often recommended here on the forums. I've spent less than a week in the three combined, so can't advise on them, but they might be good options. Xiamen is probably a very nice city, but the local dialect is Minnan, not Mandarin. I don't know how much Mandarin is spoken there on the street.

[Ether]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm learning more about China by the day.

Dalian - Since I do speak Korean and Japanese, I think it would be a great spot to put all the languages together, but for the first year I would really like to focus on Mandarin so I might have to think about this as a future destination as the language de jour seems to be Japanese. I'd love to be by fellow Koreans, but that's almost the same thing as reverting back to English, and from what I've heard there's tons of Koreans in China anyway.

Harbin - Thanks for the suggestion, I'll research this city more.

Kunming - a city recommended by a Chinese coworker. I'm really attracted by its weather (eternal spring they say). I'm wondering what the cost of living is relative to Beijing/Shanghai. Percentages would be nice (ie: 30 percent cheaper, as subjective as that may be...)... I hear kunminghua is prevalent, but I'm wondering if Kunming will provide a just as good environment to practice putonghua. more info appreciated.

Here's some cities I've narrowed down to:

Huangzhou - A lot of Chinese people I run into in the states recommend this place. Cleaner than BJ and they say its one of the most beautiful places in China. They do have the biggest university in China too - not sure if the Chinese language program for foreigners is good. I'm wondering what the living costs actually are (range of housing prices). Definitely in my top 5 places besides BJ/Shanghai.

Xiamen - Cost of living is cheap and clean, but not sure again if it would have a Chinese university with a good program for foreigners.

Xi'an - not sure, but it seems to come up time to time in the forums as a neglected area that is definitely ripe for learning/practicing Mandarin. Any experience w/ actually studying at a university here? Housing prices, etc?

I've been reading Stuart and Barbara Strother (?)'s "Living Abroad in China" and its been a wonderful read, but unsure of the information given there as the book was published in 2006 and data probably gathered before that.

My criteria for a good city:

Clean - I'm a runner and I would love to run outside if possible and have eliminated BJ from my list just because of the air. If smog is worse than Seoul, that's pretty bad in my book. Even if I don't go running, I'm not fond of polluted air or the dust storms BJ receives.

Cheap - as in rent. I'm looking to go out w/ a buddy and we're looking for two bedroom apartments that aren't really crappy by western standards and looking to pay less than 500 USD a month for a 2bedroom apartment with bathroom and kitchen.

Health - at least have english-speaking doctors or foreign clinics.

University Program: MOST IMPORTANT

as the main focus of my 1 to 2 year stint in Chinese will be for the language, I would like to go to a Chinese university that has a recommended/proven good quality instruction Mandarin program for foreigners. Name brand (prestige) - I could care less about.

Opportunities to practice: A lot of Chinese Americans tell me that I shouldn't focus so much on the local accent as most people my age (early 20s) should be able to communicate in putonghua. Please opine.

Whew,

I guess I went a little long on that post. Again, thanks in advance. This forum is great! and you regulars are awesome!

[anonymoose]

I've lived in both Dalian and Shanghai. In terms of learning Chinese, I really think the most critical factor by far is the attitude you approach it with. People often complain of there being too many foreigners here or there, but regardless of where you go in China, foreigners will still be outnumbered by Chinese people by at least 100 to 1, so if you can't eke out opportunities to practise Chinese, then it's because you're not making the effort to do so, and not because of the place you're in.

Also, provided you are in a city, there will be plenty of chances to hear and speak Mandarin, even if the local dialect is not Mandarin. In Shanghai, at a rough estimate, I'd say more than half of all conversations I hear on the street are in Mandarin, although it does vary by region and age-group. For the older generation, say 60 and older, most conversations are in Shanghainese. But in any case, anyone you are likely to have dealings with will speak to you in reasonably standard Mandarin. In fact, I have a theory that the Mandarin spoken in cities such as Shanghai is more standard than that spoken in Beijing, the reason being that Beijinghua is not distinct from standard Mandarin, so people speaking to you in Beijing will just be speaking their local Beijinghua, whereas in cities such as Shanghai, where Mandarin and the local dialect are distinctly different, people separate them in their minds, and generally speak 'purer' Mandarin with less regionalisms.

Of the cities you've mentioned, I definitely think Hangzhou or Xiamen are good options. Both are pleasant cities, and especially Xiamen being further south, will be warmer even in the winter. As Lu mentioned, the local dialect in Xiamen is Minnanhua, but the city has seen a lot of immigration from other areas, so I suspect it is also a minority language there.

As for Kunming, I've only been there for a few days, but I can't say I was very impressed. It's quite possible I missed the best parts, so I won't say much more than that. But the notion of 'four seasons being spring' I think is exaggerated. I was the in January, and it felt very much like winter, or at least definitely not spring, to me.

[flameproof]

Hence, I think being away from Beijing (where yes there are Westerners) would be a GOOD thing.

I think you have a wrong mindset here. The people you mingle with is your choice, and your choice only. They are not magnetic and will stuck to you automatically. It's a choice you make, or not make.

I would say, Beijing a suitable number of Chinese speakers you can have contact with for this, and a few more lifetimes. I have been 10+ times to BJ and yes, I often see a, or several foreigners. But I can't see why this is bad. If you think it's bad just don't look at them.

In language "situations" with locals I don't look around for a foreigner to help me. I help myself, either by rephrasing or with my Pleco.

Beijing is a good place to learn (so is Dalian, Tianjin or any any other 北方 place). But even in areas that speak natively other languages you still find enough speakers of Mandarin.

[Ether]

From my previous study abroad in Japan, I was in Tokyo and I remember heading there mainly was because I wanted the standard Tokyo accent. I thought it would be cool to be in a metropolis with lots of other English speakers. As much as I did learn in that year, I learned that if I would've forced myself to be in an area with less students, I would've improved way more.

The thing about being in an area with more westerners than others, is that you have to ACTIVELY use/practice mandarin either by hanging out w/ more locals or ignoring/not befriending english-speakers.

I guess, I think half the battle might be won if you place yourself in an area with less foreigners, and you PASSIVELY (because you are forced to) learn a language better.

I guess that's my mentality. Why not make it easier from the start by putting yourself in the ideal conditions..?

[gato]

Xiamen might have the best combination of good air/weather and relatively few foreigners (including Koreans). If you go to Xiamen, Xiamen University is pretty much the only choice in town. The school is right next to the ocean and relatively far away from downtown, so you will be spending most of your time on campus. But it is one of the nicer campuses in China. I wouldn't worry too much about the quality of the teaching, as the average teaching quality doesn't differ that much from school to school and the teaching methodology tends to be same, with unfortunately too much focus on rote memorization. What you should focus on is class size. The smaller the better, of course. Given your criteria, you probably would also want to stay away from those schools that specializes in teaching foreigners Chinese (like BLCU) because there will likely be too many foreigners there and those schools will tend to have a large percentage of students who major in English or Teaching Chinese as a Foreign Language and their English will be much better than your Chinese.

[Ether]

any recommendations on chinese language programs with small classes in Dalian, Xi'an, Qingdao, Huangzhou?

Xiamen would be Xiamen..

[imron]

Huangzhou

Huangzhou, or Hangzhou?

[Xiao Kui]

regardless of where you go in China, foreigners will still be outnumbered by Chinese people by at least 100 to 1, so if you can't eke out opportunities to practise Chinese, then it's because you're not making the effort to do so, and not because of the place you're in

great point and well put!!

[Shadowdh]

I would also throw into the pile Wuhan... I liked it there and the Chinese was fairly standard except for some pronouncing it si instead of shi... but the uni I went to was pretty good and the city is fairly clean... they also have some pretty decent lakes and parks near the uni district and my uni at a good running track that and Aussie friend of mine used on a regular basis... Wuhan also has the advantage of having a lot less foreigners than Beijing or Shanghai...

[fanglu]

I studied at Xi'an Jiaotong University (March-July 08 ) and Qingdao University (Sept 08-Jan 09). There are more foreigners by far in Qingdao but to be honest I don't think it makes that much difference. Like others have said its your approach that makes a difference more than anything.

In terms of class sizes, both had about the same size (15-20 students per class, other than the highest levels), but there were more classes in Qingdao (10 or more) than Xi'an (5). Also the students at Qingdao were more serious, which meant there were about the same number of people in the class at the end of the semester as the beginning, whereas the last month or so in Xi'an there were only 5-6 people most days.

In terms of quality of teaching, it was about the same. I actually think the individual teacher makes a lot more difference than the school, and there's really no way to plan that.

One thing is that Koreans outnumber other foreigners by far in Qingdao, whereas in Xi'an its more of a mixture, if that's important to you.

More people speak non-standard Chinese in Xi'an than Qingdao and there are a few words that you hear more there than elsewhere, but even if you pick them up, people from other places understand and just think its cute. But it was very rare for me to not understand a conversation overheard on a bus, which is my measure of the standardness of local speech.

I personally liked Xi'an better, but just because it was cheap, a bit dirty and dodgy. Qingdao is a more modern, internationalised city. If you're into day or overnight trips both places have good ones. I think you'd have a good time and learn a lot in either place.

Edited April 17, 2009 at 10:45 AM by fanglu
no smileys please, we're british

[flameproof]

... I learned that if I would've forced myself to be in an area with less students, I would've improved way more.

...and my supermarket has 50 types of cigarettes and that doesn't effect me at all.

If you really want to learn you can learn Mandarin easily were you are now. You can download content or read online. You can chat with people via skype, MSN or QQ. You have some Chinese people around you can mingle with.

If you really want it to happen, it will happen. But just spending time in China will not be enough, you have to be active and make it happen.

When I am in China I very seldom meet any foreigners, they are there, but they don't cross my path. I never had a foreign taxi driver, bus driver, supermarket cashier or security guard in China. I wonder where people meet all those foreigners. (However if you study at a U they have have some sort of enclosure where they keep all foreigners sealed off from the outside. That I wouldn't get into.)

[Ether]

i was just referring to the temptations that come along with one's environment. and your demons of 50 different types of cigarettes are relative to you. to each his own i guess.

from my experience abroad, its better if there are less foreigners. please don't misunderstand my use of passive/active - they aren't the same as lazy/hardworking.

thanks for the replies guys.

@gato: how far would xiamen downtown be from the campus? i was hoping to either get around on a scooter or a bicycle and would prefer to live off campus.

i was looking around for information on Qingdao and I think there are way too many Koreans for me. On Digg there was an article that said that a lot of changes were happening in Qingdao to make it easier for Koreans to live/reside/retire. It seems like a nice area and its a city so i'm sure it has its perks, but I think I might have to cross it off on my list.

oh, and i meant hangzhou (west lake?)

have any of you actually lived/studied in hangzhou? maybe you could tell me about the size of classes, types of programs among the different unis, and housing prices/living accomodations....

again, thanks in advance. this forum rocks!

[Lu]

The thing is, if you study Chinese in a uni program in China, all your classmates will be foreigners, as the Chinese already know their language. So the people you see every day, the most obvious people to make friends with, are not the people you should hang out with from a language-learning perspective. This is true for every program in every city in China.

That being said, in some places it's easier to stay in a foreigners' environment than in others. But even in BLCU there are plenty of Chinese to make friends with.

[peekay]

Agreed.

If were to move somewhere for 6+ months, I'd pick a city I'd love to live in, rather than worrying about the number of westerners or Koreans. Even if the entire population of S. Korea moved here, Koreans would still be a tiny minority here in China.

[gato]

I was only in Xiamen as a tourist, so I can't tell you too much about it. The university is about a fifteen, twenty minute cab ride from the main shopping district near the pier, if I remember correctly.

You can see a map here.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=xiamen+university,+xiamen,+china&sll=24.368247,118.041058&sspn=0.019859,0.038624&ie=UTF8&ll=24.454416,118.088264&spn=0.019845,0.038624&z=15&lci=com.panoramio.al

xiamen university, near Xiamen, Fujian, China

You might want to private message a user named "Kristyx" here. S/he studied in Xiamen and seems to know quite a bit about it.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/13664-how-many-guys-in-xiamen&highlight=xiamen

how many guys in xiamen?

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=147707#post147707

Xiamen,