Where to start?

[elina]

I've actual tried finding those Chinese Breeze books and only found them on studychineseculture.com - for really good prices :o. However, whats with the shipping?

I don't particulary want to wait 2 months for books to enter the UK, and paying 450% more on top of the total fee is a big no no...

Which shipping option is ideal in terms of cost and delivery time?

The 450% is for FedEx express shipping, I don’t recommend it, the reason. If people buy many products, they usually use surface mail of China Post. If they just buy a few, I recommend using SAL: Number 6 post here

"SAL是中国邮政的海陆空联合运输的一种方式，简称联运。The cost of SAL is between sea mail and airmail, the shipping time period is also between sea mail and airmail, as described by China Post. But from our experience in sending packages for our overseas customers, most of the time (maybe above 80% possibility), it can be nearly the same time with an airmail. Because SAL package can make use of the unoccupied space out of the airmail in a plane. But also be careful, the disadvantage of SAL is not exactly slow, is unstable, that means, if SAL cannot find a vacant space in a plane, it can be really slower than an airmail."

Has anyone from the UK ordered from this website?

Quite a number, in this thread, Jun Heng Clinic and Hidden12345 have ever purchased from our site.

PS. lovemandarin.com is our previous domain name.

[yersi]

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[roddy]

Forget courses and teach yourself. It's way more efficient then any course.

For grammar' date=' ignore it, it's a waste of time. Just copy what you hear and build from there.

And never worry about errors, most Chinese are not Mandarin native speakers. [/quote']

That's some of the worst advice you could hand out. Even if it is appropriate for a small number of people, and I'm not convinced it is, throwing it around as some one-size-fits-all formula is nonsense.

[flameproof]

I never took any mandarin class, I did took some different canto classes though. I have to say that a group class has too much stuff that I am really not interested in. On top, there are plenty of irrelevant questions that from others that have no relevance to most and should have been asked privately after hours.

You can hit back now and say but that's an teacher issue. It is. But you will find very few teachers that are qualified to teach anyway.

Funny sound and grammar can happen, but not if you do some reality checking. I am often enough in China I can try. I would say that Pimsleur also gives you a good accent. Beside that, I also have a formal study course (Assimil) which has a nice structure. It's also good as a grammar reference if in need. I did look up the correct use of 得, but still don't really get it.

I would say, I get my self study ideas from several different canto courses methods (basically on how to NOT do things) and my own ideas. But right, you must have the ability to be your own instructor. Otherwise you may lack aim.

On top, I do worry about teaching quality, not just in China. Those "teachers" are not qualified to teach adults. They are often native speaker and therefore do not clearly understand the problems a learner will face.

For the formal classes in some sort of university I am not sure that would work for me too. I like to learn Mandarin, but not HSK. My aim is to talk to people, not to do HSK tests.

Anyway, I talk to people all the time, can't be too wrong then.

[anonymoose]

This thread seems to have taken a turn towards a 'self-teaching' vs. attending classes argument.

What works well for one person may not work well for another, so there is no one way that is the best way for everybody, BUT...

...in order to learn Chinese to any reasonable level of competence takes a lot of effort on the part of the learner, and even if attending classes, I still think most progress is made outside class, in terms of reviewing material covered in class, doing exercises, and memorising vocabulary. Therefore, to a large extent, even if you attend classes, much of your Chinese will be self-taught anyway. The people who think that merely attending class and somehow passively letting the teacher implant knowledge will somehow lead to being competent at Chinese (or any other subject, for that matter), tend to be the ones who make the least progress of all.

[Shadowdh]

IMHO which doesnt count for much in the scheme of things... The class offers a structure or foundation for learning, but its up to you to build on that and often you can learn more/do more outside the class room...

Those "teachers" are not qualified to teach adults.

Conversely it can also be said that many "adults" are not qualified to learn... it sounds a bit silly I know but to learn requires an open mind thats willing to admit failing... picking yourself up again and then moving on... not too many adults have failing proof armour...

[yersi]

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[flameproof]

That some people don't understand this and believe just showing up in class will fast-track them to fluency...

Self learning certainly takes a special mindset, but to study in class certainly takes a certain mindset too, a different one. As I said before, if you consider 10% of your learning coming from class and 90% from other sources one will do fine. The responsibility to learn is with the student, not the teacher. Many don't get that. Those who think 100% learning will come from class will not get far.

I am not sure if language learning can be really compared to piano learning. I am sure you can find many autodidact piano learners that lack skill. You will find even more people that went through formal learning and lack skill too though.

Piano learning is here in Hong Kong a thing you have to go through as a kid, same as losing the first teeth and fever. Actually all kids learn English in School in HK, formally, for most there is not much sticking knowledge about the language either.

[renzhe]

You misunderstand me. What I said is that self-study is not for everyone, by which I mean that while certain people respond well to self-learning from the get go most would benefit from having a structured learning environment in the beginning. And without any kind of guidance, it might be hard to keep that initial motivation up when there are so many new things to learn. Maybe self-learning works great for you, but don't generalize your own experience as universal, others may benefit from what you consider "useless".

I have to agree with this, and I'm a hardcore self-studier.

All my motivation was pretty much useless when I first started to learn Chinese on my own, supported by my girlfriend. I never got beyond a couple of funny quips.

As soon as I started attending class with a (good and motivated) teacher, my level started picking up. After a while, I outgrew the class and continued on my own, making my own program, but I still think that having that structure, tone and pronunciation training, textbook recommendations and explanations in the beginning was really important.

Even while self-studying, I followed a textbook for grammar, although most of my study-time was done doing other things.

[yersi]

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[stelingo]

For Chinese books in UK try this site

http://www.cypressbooks.com/index.php

I ordered a book from them last week and received it 2 days later.

[flameproof]

@yersi - My point was that the auto-didacts ended up with severely flawed technique despite their effort because they didn't have a professional to point this out to them.

I think it's a question of how much of self learning is in that process. Self learning is usually not 100% self learning. Like for me, I do interface with Chinese people constantly. OK, most are too polite to point out errors, but not all. So I do get lots of real person feedback.

I believe for piano there is a similar effect. You can get lessons. But those who just play piano during lessons will not excel. Those who practice plenty of time on their own may do...

[roddy]

OK, most are too polite to point out errors, but not all. So I do get lots of real person feedback.

Are those the errors you told us not to worry about?

Sorry, but I don't think you're even clear on what your own approach is. Forget courses, but the Pimsleur course is useful. Ignore grammar, but Assimil is good as a grammar reference. Either you don't have any coherent approach, or you're not making a very good job of presenting it.

[flameproof]

Are those the errors you told us not to worry about?

I don't worry about errors. People who do won't speak in the first place.

I don't think that black/white thinking you are in helps much. You need to question what you do and try tackling it from several angles, even though they don't appear useful at the time.

To give an example, listening to the radio seems not too useful for a beginner since there's certainly near zero understanding. One can still gets an idea about sound and flow though.

[roddy]

So what's the point of 'real person feedback'?

[flameproof]

So what's the point of 'real person feedback'?

A real person can point out an error straight. To get a correction from a book (or whatever learning material) is rather difficult IMHO. Not really a surprise, or?

[roddy]

The errors we shouldn't worry about. Can you see why your approach is perhaps a little hard to understand?

[flameproof]

The errors we shouldn't worry about. Can you see why your approach is perhaps a little hard to understand?

You should not worry about errors before, or when you speak. But you should learn from the feedback you get. The topic is "learning". That implies that we accumulate knowledge and learn also from feedback. It's not just to use whatever you know now and stay there.

So I usually don't worry as long as I have the feeling (or confidence) I can express what I want to say. That's not always the case though, in those cases I am more sensitive to the reaction I get. But I still try to speak out to my best ability - with not much worries. But it's not whatever-happens-don't-care.

[Shadowdh]

Do you mean that you should not worry about making mistakes... as mistakes are part of the learning process...? Mistakes are corrected but errors imply that you have flaws in your technique or speech that arent being corrected...

[flameproof]

Do you mean that you should not worry about making mistakes... as mistakes are part of the learning process...?

Yes. I believe it's better to try with mistakes then never to try at all. To be perfect is an unrealistic aim. Some level of fluency is nice, and that's my aim. Plus a good reading ability.