Nanjing! Nanjing!

[skylee]

For ALL things, you have to put yourself into other’s shoes to understand. This is the first step of communication.

Somehow you have reminded me of what Milan Kundera says about compassion. I was young when I read the book (I marked on the book 13.5.90) and I didn't understand why he wrote so much about it. And because I didn't understand I remember it quite clearly.

Oops, I've mentioned something off-topic and broken the posting rules again.

[animal world]

I planned to see this movie tonight. After 15 minutes I gave up. Knew what was going to happen: lots of Chinese killed, lots of women raped. just din't have the heart for watching it.

[B-scorpio]

I planned to see this movie tonight. After 15 minutes I gave up. Knew what was going to happen: lots of Chinese killed, lots of women raped. just din't have the heart for watching it.

I saw Nanjing, Nanjing. But a few years after that, I've lost the courage to see another film about Chinese-Japanese War '金陵十三钗‘. As a Chinese, I suppose that it's the case of balancing between the sense of grief and the strong desire to know the truth. That's really painful...

[gato]

I suspect that there will be more movies about Nanjing in the future.

[animal world]

The little i saw of the movie made me believe that the movie was well done. Although i noticed, too, that the Chinese seemed well-fed and wore clean clothes without any wrinkles. Anyway, after a while i just got paralyzed and couldn't watch anymore. A rather odd sensation since in Europe i visited plenty of the horrors of World War I and II.

I don't see how China and the Chinese can accept Japan as long as it doesn't make an official apology and educate its citizens about what really happened back then.

[imron]

Japan has officially apologised on several occasions. For various reasons (including for example how acting prime ministers still visited the Yasukuni Shrine) many Chinese don't feel that the apologies were sincere enough. There are some that also want to see something similar to when Willy Brandt, then Chancellor of Germany, knelt down in front of the the monument to victims of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Many people have seen that picture and want a Japanese prime minister to do something similar. Unfortunately however, kneeling down has far stronger connotations in Eastern vs Western cultures and so while I don't imagine it would have been difficult for a German Chancellor to do that, I don't see a Japanese prime minister ever doing so.

[gato]

As I mentioned elsewhere, the CCP's policy towards Japan in the 1980s was reconciliation and economic cooperation. The message in the Chinese media was on the generosity of the Chinese people in moving on from history and achieving reconciliation and cooperation. There were lots of Japanese TV shows on the Chinese airwaves at that time.

But after Tiananmen in 1989, there was a crisis of legitimacy. The Party decided that it needed to expand the promotion of nationalism to re-establish its legitimacy. So the relationship with Japan became much cooler, and the Party became much more vocal in criticizing the Japanese government and in promoting the history of fighting the Japanese. As for the past Japanese apologies, the Chinese media doesn't mention them.

Here is a notice issued by the Ministry of Propaganda and Ministry of Education on the list of patriotic education movies required to be viewed by elementary and high school students. Of the 16 movies required for elementary school students, 3 are about fighting against the Japanese, 1 is about the Opium War, and 1 about fighting the Americans in the Korean War.

In the propaganda, it's always the Communists fighting against the Japanese, even though in reality, the Nationalists did most of the fighting and lost orders of magnitude more people than the Communists.

It's important to learn history, but the government often distorts history for its own political purposes.

http://www.ydjps.sc....0010200/013.htm

关于运用优秀影视片在全国中小学开展爱国主义教育的通知

【颁布单位】中宣部／国家教委／广播电影电视部／文化部

【颁布日期】1993-09-13

中小学爱国主义教育影视片目

一、供小学观看的爱国主义教育系列片目（试行）

必看片（１６）部

类 别 片 名 片种 出品厂 主要内容

抗击帝国主义侵略

林则徐 彩故 海燕 鸦片战争虎门销烟

甲午风云 彩故 长影 中日甲午战争黄海大海战

小兵张嘎 黑故 北影 抗日战争游击队斗争故事

上甘岭 黑故 八一 抗美援朝上甘岭战役

革命传统与社会主义

闪闪的红星 彩故 八一 第二次国内革命战争故事

万水千山 彩故 八一 红军长征故事

革命家庭 彩故 北影 《我的一家》改编革命斗争故事

狼牙山五壮士 黑故 八一 抗日战争故事

南征北战 黑故 八一 解放战争故事

烈火中永生 黑故 北影 革命烈士的故事

开国大典 彩故 北影 中华人民共和国成立的故事

人物传记

少年毛泽东 电视剧 湖南台 毛泽东小时候的故事

少年彭德怀 彩故 儿影 彭德怀将军小时候的故事

聂 耳 彩故 上影 音乐家聂耳的故事

董存瑞 黑故 八一 董存瑞烈士的一生

雷锋 黑故 八一 雷锋的故事

[gato]

Is this an apology?

http://www.mofa.go.j...na/joint72.html

Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China

September 29, 1972

The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding "the three principles for the restoration of relations" put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this.

http://news.xinhuane...tent_331579.htm

中华人民共和国政府和日本国政府联合声明(中日联合声明)

（1972年9月29日）

日本方面痛感日本国过去由于战争给中国人民造成的重大损害的责任，表示深刻的反省。日本方面重申站在充分理解中华人民共和国政府提出的“复交三原则”的立场上，谋求实现日中邦交正化这一见解。中国方面对此表示欢迎。

[B-scorpio]

I actually feel confused about Japanese official attitude towards apology. Seems it's kind of like temporization or just do apparent apology for some practical purposes:

中华人民共和国政府和日本国政府联合声明(中日联合声明)

（1972年9月29日）

日本方面痛感日本国过去由于战争给中国人民造成的重大损害的责任，表示深刻的反省。日本方面重申站在充分理解中华人民共和国政府提出的“复交三原则”的立场上，谋求实现日中邦交正化这一见解。中国方面对此表示欢迎。

In fact, when the years around 1972, Japan was hoping to rebuilding Sino-Japanese relationship after US government had earlier renewed the relationship with China. So obviously Japanese official had to do this. But what Chinese people and government are talking about is the public official denial of their crimes(especially Chinese-Japanese War). Recently, there've been a issue that was really remarkable for Chinese people. The mayor of nagoya denied the existence of Massacre in Nanjing in public and then rejected by Chinese official when he was going to pay a visit to China for his preivious rude statement.(it happaned just few weeks ago) And the historical falsification of Japanese textbooks and visits by Japanese political leaders to the Yasukuni Shrine for the war dead are an act of glorifying the past, which have frequently happened in recent decade. It's quite ridiculous for Japanese official to varies it's attitude on apology over and over again through so many years.

there's no denying that more and more Japanese people believe the war between two countries do exists instead of so called'Japanese army entered China for international exchange' or something given by their textbooks. Many nongovernmental organizations of the two countries have been comunicating well all the time no matter how bad relationship between the officials. That's really amazing.

There are some that also want to see something similar to when Willy Brandt, then Chancellor of Germany, knelt down in front of the the monument to victims of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Really inpressive. we had it in our middle school textbook, and admire his courage exalted personality. We also took it as an example compared with Japanese government. I think that it's not Japan ordinary people's business, but mainly the thing of official people. And that's why Chinese people put so much emphasis on the apology made by the Japanese government.

[animal world]

imron and gato, thank you both for your trouble to educate me on this subject. Yes, Japan clearly apologized.

I've always felt that the Americans were too kind by letting Hirohito off the hook instead of trying him as a war criminal. They didn't want another Treaty of Versailles that would lead to the next World War. According to an historian quoted in the Wikipedia it also contributed to the perception that Japan never adequately apologized. Per Wikipedia: "According to historian Herbert Bix in Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, "MacArthur's truly extraordinary measures to save Hirohito from trial as a war criminal had a lasting and profoundly distorting impact on Japanese understanding of the lost war."^[3] Among the consequences of MacArthur's decision-making are continuing controversies surrounding the issues of apology."

[gato]

I've always felt that the Americans were too kind by letting Hirohito off the hook instead of trying him as a war criminal. They didn't want another Treaty of Versailles that would lead to the next World War.

I read that MacArthur went easy on Hirohito because having his support would make it easier to govern Japan after the war. The US also wanted the Japanese's support in the Cold War. The Korean War, which started in 1950, probably was a factor.

[Outofin]

gato went too far this time.

Give us your comprehensive understanding of the this issue and your advice to both governments and people. What the problem it and how to fix it. The whole picture, but don't make it too long.

[gato]

The Chinese government should continue its Japan policy of the 1980s: reconciliation and cooperation. Instead, it focuses the public's attention on fringe rightwing views in Japan and tries to fan the flames of hatred in order to prop up its own support. It's like the Republicans talking about Islamic terrorists all the time instead of coming up with a more sensible Middle East policy.

Deng Xiaoping was a bit extreme in saying "Let bygones be bygones" when he met Emperor Hirohito in 1978, but that was essentially China's policy towards Japan in the 1980s.

But now the Party doesn't try to stir up hatred against the Nationalists anymore, it needs to keep the Japanese as a target.

http://book.people.c...6/14295934.html

邓小平会见日本天皇裕仁：“过去的事情就让它过去”

2011年04月01日10:37

http://news.ifeng.co...3_1108014.shtml

1978年外媒对邓小平访问日本的报道(图)

2009年04月15日 08:30新华网

http://junshi.xilu.c...1375_347527.htm

1978年邓小平访问日本学到了什么？

邓小平访日之后，中国出现了“日本热”，大批考察团涌入日本，大量的日本专家、学者被请到中国讲课，中日政府成员会议相继举行，官民之间各领域、各层次的交流日趋活跃，两国间的经济、贸易、技术合作迅速发展。

[animal world]

gato went too far this time.

Give us your comprehensive understanding of the this issue and your advice to both governments and people. What the problem it and how to fix it. The whole picture, but don't make it too long.

My goodness, Outofin, surely you were joking. If not, why would you stand in the way of freedom of speech? Besides, i enjoy the alsosprachgato posts !

[Outofin]

According to gato, the problem is that the Chinese government tries to fan the flames of hatred. In most recent incident, mayor of Nagoya who has huge popular supports said Nanjing Massacre didn't happen, and soon after his view was supported by Tokyo governor as well. How did China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs respond to this? How did Chinese government fan the flames of hatred? What do you suggest them to say instead of what they have said?

In an indifferent bystander's view, how would you solve the problem and prevent this from happening again?

[skylee]

How would you?

[Outofin]

Me: The Japanese are wrong. We should press them to stop denying Nanjing Massacre (and stop worshiping war criminals, among a few other things).

gato: Chinese government tries to fan the flames of hatred. We should press them to continue its Japan policy of the 1980s: reconciliation and cooperation.

So, let's vote.

I don't want to set you up. I just feel a sudden necessity to ensure where your line is. To my best knowledge with gato, that must be a misunderstanding. So I'm waiting for a clarification. But so far that's what he said after I asked him to "Give us your comprehensive understanding of the this issue and your advice to both governments and people. What the problem it and how to fix it. The whole picture."

[animal world]

I don't want to set you up. I just feel a sudden necessity to ensure where your line is. To my best knowledge with gato, that must be a misunderstanding. So I'm waiting for a clarification. But so far that's what he said after I asked him to "Give us your comprehensive understanding of the this issue and your advice to both governments and people. What the problem it and how to fix it. The whole picture."

Outofin, i don't know whether you are addressing gato, me or everybody. If me, I can't address "the whole picture" because I know next to nothing about China. But let's see what's happening in the US, a country in which we both live and with which we are both familiar. Undoubtedly, you recall the incident of the accidental burning of Qurans, the subsequent violence, and Obama offering his apology. To me, that apology was a diplomatic necessity and i also suspect that Obama, and most reasonable Americans, felt that an apology was called for and sincerely meant. Yet, the Republican presidential contenders were all shouting that it showed what a weakling Obama was because the president of the mighty United States should not have to apologize to anyone. Yeah, it's easy shouting loud to fire up your base and show what a tough guy you are because a presidential contender is not responsible for anything. The media, of course, loves these shouting matches because it gives them something to write about. As you are well aware, the quality of the media here has gone downhill. In the recent nuclear issue with Iran, that idiot McCain (anyone who selected Sarah Palin as his running mate must be an idiot of the first order) was shouting that we should get ready to bomb Iran. Hey, comments make for great headlines and nice intro's to the evening news but they have nothing to do with reality.

"The whole picture" is a very difficult concept to embrace. It depends on one's audience. Again, i am only using the US as an example. I have lived a good while here and there are lots of things I love about it and lots of things I don't particularly care for. Since the last bubble, the US has gone down quite a bit in my estimation. But when i hear relatives in Europe criticize the US, I always jump to its defense.

The Chinese people may not have heard enough in terms of apologies from Japan; it has not heard a heck of lot either from its own government about certain events in 1989.

[Outofin]

I'm addressing to gato exclusively. I want to understand his view on the history issues in China Japan relations.

[yialanliu]

Agree with Outofin.

I never accuse the Jews of asking for an apology from Germany to be excessive.

Likewise, I feel the chinese are entitled to at least 1 heartfelt apology from the leader of the country.

I'm not even Jewish and I'd be pissed if Merkel went to the burial palces of the scientists in the concentration camps.

Remember the soldiers are the scientists in this case for Nanjing in terms of the cause of the pain.

I also would like the primary/secondary education to at least include the atrocities that were committed by the Japanese during WWII. Rather than teaching kids nothing bad was done by the Japanese to either the Korean Comfort women or to the chinese in incidents like Nanjing or the Hypothermia Research.

When I studied in the US, we never censored what the US did to Indians or other atrocities. I don't see why the Japanese have to do that.