Can someone rate my cantonese - give pointers?

[chinesenewbie]

Hi all,

I'm not particularly new to cantonese, I understand it well but just not fluent in it. I was wondering if someone could listen to my cantonese and give me some tips?

-pronunciation accuracy

-tones (I've read some topics about tones 2 and 5 differences or 4 and 6 subtleties, if someone can note whether I'm getting them wrong, or whether it's still understandable please let me know)

Please note, that I don't normally read Cantonese. So it was slightly awkward for me.

This is what I said in the mp3 that I attached.

Written Chinese - first part I read the lyrics to the song 每天愛你多一些 by Jacky Cheung

the lyrics are here:

無求甚麼　無尋甚麼　突破天地　但求夜深

奔波以後　能望見你　你可否知道麼

平凡亦可　平淡亦可　自有天地　但求日出

清早到後　能望見你　那已經很好過

當身邊的一切如風　是你讓我找到根蒂

不願離開　只願留低　情是永不枯萎

而每過一天　每一天　這醉者

便愛你多些　再多些　至滿瀉

我發覺我最愛與你編寫　以後明天的深夜

而每過一天　每一天　這醉者 (這情深者)

便愛你多些　再多些　至滿瀉 (然後再多一些)

我最愛你與我這生一起　哪懼明天風高路斜

名是甚麼　財是甚麼　是好滋味　但如在生

朝朝每夜　能望見你　那更加的好過

2nd part, is SPOKEN cantonese.

I read off some stuff from a random youtube video of Stephy Tang.

These are some random comments on the video:

唱得真系好好,难怪连报纸都写你进步了,的确,你的唱功一天比一 天进步,你的努力我们看得到,你也很虚心地去不断改进自己!

有d音未夠準

加油

好明顯有比心機練歌=]

佢d歌唔易唱架..

首首都好高音.

e+終於有好大既進步.

聽到都冇咩走音.

好過th*re*a唱d歌又唔係話高音..

但就可以唱到唔止走音.係變聲!

佢唱歌仲要唔係用聲黎唱.係用氣黎唱

please note that I'm aware I might've pronounced 聲 wrong. Please let me know whether it should be seng1 or sing1 thanks

I appreciate any help from you guys!!

sample.mp3

[Hofmann]

It sounds very good. A few points

1. Sometimes tones 2 and 5 get mixed up or merged.

2. Sometimes, [tɕ] [tɕʰ] [ɕ] and [ts] [tsʰ] get mixed up. When in doubt, change them all to [ts] [tsʰ] , because that's Standard Cantonese.

3. 聲 in 變聲 is seng1.

4. 愛 has [ʔ] initial.

[chinesenewbie]

Thanks for your feedback! As I mentioned, I'm not exactly a complete newbie when it comes to cantonese but yeah I do have trouble speaking and pronouncing properly sometimes.

I don't quite get what you mean by #2. with [tɕ] [tɕʰ] [ɕ] and [ts] [tsʰ] .

Are you referring to those soft 'c' sounds like 尋 and 斜?

I appreciate it. At least I know what to work on now!

[Hofmann]

Uhh...let's try this.

Does 者 sound like 姐 to you?

• If it does, I recommend you pronounce the initial of 之 and 資 as [ts] (same as Pinyin "z"); the initial of 黐 and 雌 as [tsʰ] (same as Pinyin "c"); and the initial of 詩 and 思 as (same as Pinyin "s"). Standard Cantonese uses these initials.
  
• If it doesn't, make sure you don't confuse [tɕ] [tɕʰ] [ɕ] and [ts] [tsʰ] . One can think of these as somewhat like the zh ch sh and z c s initials in Mandarin.
  

How long have you been studying? You're very good, but it sounds like you might have had some experience with another Chinese language.

[chinesenewbie]

yeah both 者 and 姐 sound identical to me.

I think I get what you mean.

So z- openings should be pronounced like the mandarin 'z'.

c- openings (like 草, 操, 潮 for ex) I should try to pronounce them like the mandarin 'c'.

s- openings, well like an english s I guess.

I know perhaps theres a possibility the sounds don't correspond exactly to the equivalent mandarin sounds, but I get what you're saying. I could've sworn I did that in the recording lol, becuase in my mind that's how I've always thought they were pronounced. (for 草 for instance, I know an english 'ch' pronunciation is definitely wrong, I go for more of the mandarin 'c')

Yeah i'm not exactly a newbie at cantonese or mandarin, I've grown up somewhat exposed to both languages, I watch tv shows/variety shows on youtube in both languages (more so taiwan shows lately).

I guess I'm at the point where I'm pissed at myself for being such a dumbass when I was a kid and not realize the importance of the Chinese language. Now I wish I could speak canto as good as some of my friends, or speak mando as good as some of my other friends. Plus I envy those who speak both PLUS they have a dialect at home that they speak. (oh btw, I know you may suggest it, but I don't want to speak chinese to my friends. I think I'd wanna become fluent first instead of 'revealing' that I suck lol, it's a pride thing. )

I guess I'm just trying my best to become fluent in both canto and mando, and of course, I do realize that I have an advantage since I'm not exactly starting from scratch. I speak a different dialect at home actually, 潮州 dialect.

I'm quite psyched right now because I'm sure with a fair amount of dedication, I can achieve the fluency I should've had when I was a kid. Mandarin, however, might take longer.

Thanks for your help!

[Yan Hoi]

Modern Cantonese speakers no longer differentiate between [tɕ] [tɕʰ] [ɕ] and [ts] [tsʰ] anymore. [tɕ] [tɕʰ] [ɕ] in Old Cantonese correspond to the retroflex affricates in Mandarin [zh] [ch] [sh], while [ts] [tsʰ] correspond to [z] [c] and [j] [q] [x] in Mandarin.

Interestingly, even though the Standard Cantonese transcription has dropped the alveolo-palatal sibilants [tɕ] [tɕʰ] [ɕ], today many Cantonese speakers still use these as allophones of the [ts] [tsʰ] phonemes, especially before vowels and [y]. E.g. [ɕyt] for 雪 instead of [syt] and [tɕʰi] for 次 instead of [ci].

For all the other succeeding vowels, modern speakers will generally use [ts] [tsʰ] as initials.

[trien27]

please note that I'm aware I might've pronounced 聲 wrong. Please let me know whether it should be seng1 or sing1 thanks

In standard Cantonese, it's seng1, but in combination with other words, like when singing, sometimes the sound of seng1 needs to be changed to sing1 in order to harmonize with the sound of the previous character. So 聲 in 聲音, might be seng1 or seng1 depending on how it's used.

NOTE: sing1 in Cantonese sounds like the English verb "sing".

[Hofmann]

Standard Cantonese contains both seng1 and sing1. They are 白讀 and 文讀 respectively.

[skylee]

I think the OP's Cantonese is good enough.

BTW, I am REALLY interested in hearing Hofmann's Cantonese. Could you share?

I've recorded my reading of the lyrics of 上海灘 and it is here.

[wannabeafreak]

(oh btw, I know you may suggest it, but I don't want to speak chinese to my friends. I think I'd wanna become fluent first instead of 'revealing' that I suck lol, it's a pride thing. )

How are you going to get fluent if you don't speak it to your friends?

You can read all this Chinese and you are not fluent? I cannot possibly believe you are not fluent... You seem to be miles ahead of me if you can read all this without any pinyin.

[calibre2001]

Reading and speaking are different skills ma..

Millions of chinese can read english but can't speak it properly, apparently its called 啞巴英文 (muted english). So I don't see why 啞巴中文 cannot exist.

[Hofmann]

BTW, I am REALLY interested in hearing Hofmann's Cantonese. Could you share?

WARNING: HAZARDOUS MATERIAL ATTACHED

Also a hazardous video.

something.mp3

[Yan Hoi]

Excellent, Hofmann. Cantonese as it would sound 150 years ago in Guangzhou, with all the alveolo-palatal sibilants clearly enunciated and in the right places. (OK, maybe the 1st tone would be high falling instead of high level, judging by my grandparents' intonation. The high falling tone 1 is practically absent in HK today though many Malaysian and Singaporean Cantonese still retain it.)

A curious question: are you a native speaker? I detected a couple of inconsistencies. First, the lack of aspiration (or minimal aspiration) in "千" in the phrase "轉千灣，轉千灘" makes it sound like [tsin1] instead of [tsʰin1], presumably influenced by the unaspirated initial in the preceding "轉". Elsewhere the [tsʰ] is well aspirated.

The other thing I noted is more subtle: the 2nd element in the [au] diphthong is less close in tone 4, e.g. "頭" in "舉頭" sounding more like [tʰao4] rather than [tʰau4], than in other tones, e.g. [au] in "又有喜" [yau6 yau5 hei2] are precisely articulated. Also, I might be splitting hairs, but I feel that the central [a] ([ɐ] in IPA) in a few places is a little more retracted, e.g. 混 [wan6], 頭 [tʰau4], but in other places is spot on, e.g. 心 [sam1], 分 [fan1].

Beautiful renditions, nonetheless. Thanks.

Edited June 5, 2009 at 03:54 AM by Yan Hoi

[Hofmann]

Thanks, Yan Hoi.

Listening to the recording, I don't hear anything special about 千. The inconsistency may be my recording equipment (a webcam microphone) or your playback equipment.

I am a native speaker, but started being exposed to Western American English at around age 2 or so. After that, other languages such as Mandarin, French, German, and Japanese might have influenced me. So maybe you are splitting hairs. Indeed 頭 sounds sort of weird now that I listen to it (I eventually do reach , but only at the very end, where my voice is too quiet and low). 地 is even worse. You probably paid more attention listening than me speaking.

P.S. My family left 廣東 more than 100 years ago.

[Yan Hoi]

Thanks for getting back, Hofmann. I have an interest in French, English and Chinese phonetics, so yes, I do tend to split hairs when I listen to speech.

My grandparents (Cantonese on the paternal side, and Teochew on the maternal) too left Guangdong more than a hundred years ago. I grew up speaking Cantonese, with English, Mandarin and Malay acquired at a later age, so Cantonese is the closest to my heart.

Naturally, I'm chagrined at the deteriorating standard of spoken Cantonese in Singapore, Malaysia and even HK today. Especially HK, where it's the lingua franca and more is expected from it. The frequent English interjections, the dropped initial & final [ŋ], the missing [w] from the [wo] glide, conflating final [t] with [k], assimilation of the single [ŋ] into [m], etc all grate on the ears when I hear young HKers speak today. In Singapore and Malaysia, many Cantonese speakers can't distinguish between tones 4 and 6, and tones 3 and 5 anymore: "以" sounds like "意" and "壽" sounds like "愁".

Some of the young Guangzhouers I came into contact with also show traces of Mandarinization in their speech, saying [上班], [落班] instead of [返工], [放工], for instance.

Ah well, language is a living thing, I guess.

[chinesenewbie]

thanks again folks

I just borrowed some cantonese books from the library (elementary level) which hopefully will help me improve my speaking.

wannabeafreak, the reason I'm not fluent is because I didn't speak it as often as I could've. I can definitely pronounce the words (iono 80% properly), can hold small short conversations. But definitely cannot express myself well enough to hold a long conversation.

As I mentioned, I'm not exactly new to cantonese, I can understand it quite well, and I guess sort of do have a foundation for the language because of my upbringing. I'm just hoping to improve it and am glad I found this site!

[Hofmann]

See http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/ for more Cantonese focus.

See Wikipedia for reading material.

[Guan_Zhenni]

If I didn't know any better, I would say you sound like a native Cantonese speaker. I think you just need to work on accentuating the tones.