Following stroke orders

[Hofmann]

Does anyone not follow stroke orders? Why?

If you do follow stroke orders, why? Which standard do you follow? To what extent do you try to stick to your standard?

[HerrPetersen]

I think I mostly use correct stroke order - however for some hanzi I am not sure which the order is, so probably some mistakes have established themselves. Sometimes I crosscheck with estroke - but it is not high-priority, unless writing really feels "off".

I want to keep correct stroke order as far as possible but I just don't feel like crosschecking all the time.

I pretty much have zero knowledge of different stroke-order systems. (I just remember estroke having different possible settings for certain hanzi-components).

[Meng Lelan]

97% of the time I adhere to stroke order because the characters look better when I do that.

3% of the time I don't because it's too awkward to do it the prescribed way. I can't think of any specific examples right now. Another reason is just because I don't follow stroke order 100% of the time doesn't mean the world is going to blow up in an instant.

[moderntime]

I follow stroke order because it makes writing characters far faster. I can't imagine having to come up with a new stroke order for each new character that I learn, that seems so time-consuming on top of all the other things I have to keep in mind with regards to learning Chinese.

There are different standards for stroke orders? Had no idea...the stroke order I use is simply the one that I was taught by my Chinese teachers.

[Shadowdh]

Of the characters I know the stroke order I will follow the stroke order all the time as the characters flow better, look better and are remembered and written easier... if I dont know the stroke order for a character I will try to follow the base rules of writing a character then look it up using Pleco and other tools and see what the correct order is (if I have it right then yay, if not then I will change it and practice a few times...)

[YuehanHao]

I do not follow a proper stroke order because it seems unnecessary for my purposes. I never use cursive or calligraphic writing, but only imitate the style of standard characters that are typically in books or on the computer screen. I have read somewhere that the presently established stroke orders have come into being due in large part to past use of other writing implements (i.e., ink and brush), but I use more modern implements that have different capabilities. (I think I've also read that a different stroke order was prescribed prior to the use of ink and brush.) In addition, I felt there is enough for me to memorize that a second- or third-order of importance item such as proper stroke order could be omitted.

I do have an unconscious system, though: write each character as is natural to me. I can't give simple rules, but I do write a given character the same way each time after a brief learning period (normally -- it feels awkward on the occasion that I accidentally exit the normal process), and I will typically write radicals as a unit. I am not sure my way is any slower than using the proper order, and it may even be faster, since I allow shortcuts on certain forms. Properly educated people (even down to schoolkids) will all laugh when they see me writing (although I am now in the habit of covering my paper) but once the deed is done, there is none the wiser.

约翰好

[Guest realmayo]

I follow the rules 99.9%, though there may be an occasional character I'm unsure about, or where there are different ways of writing.

As for not following any established order, I imagine this would make remembering how to write the characters much, much trickier. They'd probably also look very odd too! A bit like writing English from right to left?

[Don_Horhe]

I also follow stroke order, 99.9% of the times, and it's a thing I do unconsciously. That 0.1% is when I have to jot something down very fast, usually just for my own reference, without lifting the pen from the paper, although it usually ends up looking like something a two-year old would do.

I've also noticed that some Chinese don't strictly follow stroke order, including teachers. I think that everybody develops their own way of writing, even though they all know the standard and can reproduce it if asked.

[Hofmann]

There are different standards for stroke orders?

Yeah. I think there are at least 4. mentions 3, but from the image below, it seems that Hong Kong even has its own standard.

http://i39.tinypic.com/33k99o3.png

YuehanHao, I wonder if your habits resemble an orthodox stroke order.

Edited May 2, 2009 at 11:46 AM by roddy
Large image breaking layout

[Scoobyqueen]

I follow stroke order. Whenever I am in doubt I ask a teacher what the correct stroke order should be and always try and look which order they use when they write on the white board. I dont want to develop a bad habit that would be a disadvantage later and furthermore I want the writing to flow (with all the extra lines that come with that) firstly so that i doesnt look like a thirteen-year old's writing but like a proper adult and secondly because it enables you to write faster being able to note down quotes verbatim.

[Guest realmayo]

I just went to look again at a relevant post on sinosplice, here.

I thought this comment was spot on:

If a student wants to learn to write Chinese by hand, it is important to stick with one of the correct stroke orders. It is easier to remember something you do the same way each time. Not only is it easier mentally, but “muscle memory” kicks in and helps too. Inattention to stroke order could be one factor in a person never learning to write Chinese by hand.

Two other reasons stroke order is important to a serious student: Eventually, one’s characters can become cursive. At that point, a correct form of stroke order will keep the characters recognizable.

Finally, stroke order is a part of the language’s “culture”.

[anonymoose]

Which standard do you follow?

As far as I am aware, there is no 'standard' for stroke order - there is only convention. I might be wrong, but I've never seen an official source prescribing what the 'correct' stroke order is. Teaching materials follow a convention, which is based on commonly accepted principles of character formation (left to right, top to bottom, etc.), but whether or not deviations from this convention can be considered to be incorrect is only subjective. As others have pointed out, different styles of writing have different stroke conventions anyway, and even native Chinese writers don't all write in exactly the same way. I was quite surprised to see one of my Chinese teachers writing 出 (and any other character containing 出) by writing two 山s separately on top of one another.

[Shadowdh]

I was always under the impression that the stroke order was designed (or implemented is perhaps a better term here) so the writer can 1) remember the character easier, 2) it presents a more logical path of writing (that is one stroke seems to flow into another better) and 3) it is easier to read and flows better...

Anonymoose... as it happens thats the way I write that character too... I always viewed it as two 山's on top of each other... although I did change my way of writing 起 as a friend showed me that I should write the two horizontal strokes first and then the downward next as I use to write the top 十 first, the horizontal and then the bottom part...

[Hofmann]

I've never seen an official source prescribing what the 'correct' stroke order is.

Here is one for Taiwan.

Here is one for Hong Kong.

All standards agree on the vast majority of components and characters. There are some discrepancies, as seen in the image I linked to and the Sinosplice post.

The stroke orders for 楷書, 行書, and 草書 differ, so following the correct stroke order for 楷書 while writing fast doesn't make your writing become another script.

[david808]

As Hofmann mentioned, there are discrepancies among different standards, but all the standards were devised to help speed, fluidity, and accuracy in composition. The basic rules of stroke order remain the same. We have summarized them at http://www.archchinese.com/arch_stroke_order_rules.html ( or http://archchinese.appspot.com/arch_stroke_order_rules.html if you are in China). The latest standard of simplified Chinese was published by 国家语委和中华人民共和国新闻出版署(China National Language and Character Working Committee, General Administration of Press and Publication of the Peoples' Republic of China) in 1997. If you are in China, you can buy the book from most of the book stores. The original data of Arch Chinese were created by well-educated native speakers. It took us quite some time to correct them so that they conform to this standard. Put it in another way, even well-educated native speakers do not follow the standard

国家语言文字工作委员会

中华人民共和国新闻出版署

关于发布《现代汉语通用字笔顺规范》

的联合通知

（1997年4月7日）

各省、自治区、直辖市语言文字工作委员会、新闻出版局：

1988年3月25日国家语言文字工作委员会和新闻出版署联合发布的《现代汉语通用字表》确定了7000个汉字的规范笔顺。由于字表中的规范笔顺是隐性的，在应用中因理解不同出现了汉字笔顺的不规范现象。此外，规范笔顺本身又存在一些难点。为了促进我国语言文字规范化，满足汉字研究、汉字教学、汉字信息处理、出版印刷、辞书编纂等方面的需要，特对现行规范笔顺进行完善，形成了《现代汉语通用字笔顺规范》，现予发布。

《现代汉语通用字笔顺规范》是在《现代汉语通用字表》的基础上形成的，将隐性的规范笔顺变成显性的，列出了三种形式的笔顺。同时，明确了字表中难以根据字序推断出规范笔顺的“火”、“叉”、“ 鬯 ”、“爽”等一些字的笔顺，调整了“敝 ”、“脊”两个字的笔顺。

《现代汉语通用字笔顺规范》自发布之日起在全国施行。

[Lugubert]

The Japanese order, even the stroke count, can be different. For 耳, they end with the second vertical, instead of writing it as the third stroke.

[fluxs]

In addition to what has been said before, I found that Chinese do often and on purpose deviate from the (several) correct stroke order(s) when writing in caoshu and xingshu. That is to say in different types of writing forms it may be quite acceptable to change the stroke order to please aesthetic aspects.

on the other hand, i guess for learning the language it has the above mentioned benefits of sticking to one stroke order.