Learning Chinese – advice for the new and independent student

[MTH123]

On 4/9/2022 at 9:39 PM, suMMit said:

You can contact the author for all of the pdf's and mp3s. I'm working on book 4 at the moment and recommend the series. I would say its designed for people already living in China, a focus on practical everyday needs. The pronunciation section is well done too.

 

The author's contact is in this thread:

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/58831-chinese-made-easier-mp3/#comment-457593

 

Since I’m big on tones and pronunciation being the most important parts of learning Chinese, Chinese Made Easier is far-and-away a better choice than New Practical Chinese Reader or Integrated Chinese. New Practical Chinese Reader and Integrated Chinese may have their places too, but if I were to select only one, it would be Chinese Made Easier, especially as an independent self-learner.

 

For example, New Practical Chinese Reader is cryptic in many ways that it doesn’t seem a textbook should be. For tones, it doesn’t even mention pitch. For pronunciation, for the first letter than doesn’t sound the same in Chinese as it does in English, it says,

 

b like “p” in “speak” (unaspirated, voiceless)

 

I really don’t understand what that means. I really don’t. It’s p, but it isn’t the same as the other p? What is unaspirated? What is voiceless?

 

Here’s what Chinese Made Easier says,

 

b          similar to an initial English ‘b’ as in ‘bill’, but is more accurately the ‘p’ as in ‘spill.’

 

HAVING PROBLEMS?

 

Our basic difficulty is that, although we do have these three Chinese sounds in English [b, d and g], they never occur initially but only after an initial ‘s’ (see examples above). So we must learn to produce initial b, d, g which are both unaspirated and unvoiced. How do we know when we have achieved this?

 

Aspiration

 

Hold a lighted match close to your lips and say ‘pill’. The match should go out. Repeat this action, but this time trying to remove that puff of breath from the ‘p’ so that the match remains alight. If you are having problems, try starting with the word ‘spill’ and carefully remove the ‘s’. (Note to the badly burned: a very thin piece of paper or the back of your hand can be used instead.)

 

Voicing

 

Voicing occurs when the vocal cords vibrate. This can be heard most clearly by placing a finger in each ear and saying slowly a ‘z’ (= voiced) followed by an ‘s’ (= unvoiced). Your aim is to make a Chinese b so that the buzzing sound of the vocal cords starts just as your lips come apart, neither sooner nor later. (Note: don’t be confused by the buzzing of the vowel following as all vowels in Chinese are voiced).

 

Once you have succeeded in producing a Chinese b, the d and g should cause little or no problem.

 

Because Chinese Made Easier explains things in detail, I have something to wrap my brain around and try. It’s working too, which is amazing to me. I thought I would never be able to fix my terrible pronunciation. Even if I don’t end up fixing all of it to a decent level, I’ll at least be able to significantly improve it, now that I armed with knowledge about how to pronounce things properly.

 

I’ve never had a textbook, like New Practical Chinese Reader, that gives so little in certain important ways (not all important ways) and relies so heavily on the teacher/professor. Apparently, this is not uncommon. It seems that someone set a trend a long, long time ago that others followed. So, I don’t mean to be picking on New Practical Chinese Reader in particular. But, detailed information on tones and pronunciation should be in every textbook. It should be there not only for initial learning, but also for future reference. Every time I fall back into English habits, I can go back and re-learn and re-practice.

 

I’ve been looking all over the place for information like this, because I think it’s that important. Not only does Chinese Made Easier dwarf other textbooks in tones and pronunciation, it’s the best I’ve run across anywhere on the internet. I can’t recommend it highly enough.

 

Chinese Made Easier is out of print. Part (but not all) of the series can be bought at www.purpleculture.net, which is based in Hong Kong. So, the shipping cost matters. Part or all of the series is available in the used/out-of-print book market. It’s often at a premium cost. Or, you can email the author Martin Symonds.

 

There’s a short version so-to-speak called First Steps in Chinese that can be downloaded from the website below for free. It seems to have essentially the same material for tones and pronunciations. I like it better to start with, because I’m concentrating on tones and pronunciations first.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/learnchineseinafrica/home/chinese-curriculum

 

Martin Symonds also has a YouTube channel that discusses the five hardest sounds. I’ve found it to be very helpful too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLwnJAygV8NXarQ7zXadOBQ

 

Happy Chinese Learning!

 

[alantin]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:38 AM, MTH123 said:

Since I’m big on tones and pronunciation being the most important parts of learning Chinese, Chinese Made Easier is far-and-away a better choice than New Practical Chinese Reader or Integrated Chinese. New Practical Chinese Reader and Integrated Chinese may have their places too, but if I were to select only one, it would be Chinese Made Easier, especially as an independent self-learner.

I have never seen a textbook that explains pronunciation well (and I've seen a lot of them for quite a few different languages!). Or maybe I have but it use too technical language to describe it for me to understand. My main beef with them is that they pick English words that the author thinks has something that sounds similar to the target pronunciation, but even native English speakers represent different accents and dialects and most of the users of those text books are non-native English speakers anyway. I personally would like to see diagrams and pictures detailing where your tongue should be, how your lips should be positioned and how and where the air should flow, but those are very rare.

 

The best advice I can give for learning pronunciation is NEVER as a beginner to try to do it without a native tutor to tell you if you're doing it right and guide you on how to do it. Once a native tells you that you're getting it right, those English explanations and diagrams are going to be useful, but NEVER before. You'll just end up with bad habits that are extremely difficult to get rid of later. Especially if the sounds in the target language are very different from anything you already know.

 

Feel free to ignore this advice at your own peril and at the expense of your pronunciation. ?

 

P.s. That being said, take a look at the say it right series by Chinesepod. It has really good explanations and discussion about pronunciation:
https://chinesepod.com/lessons/the-say-it-right-series

[MTH123]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:15 PM, alantin said:

I personally would like to see diagrams and pictures detailing where your tongue should be, how your lips should be positioned and how and where the air should flow, but those are very rare.

 

Chinese Made Easier has these too, although I don't know if they meet all your requirements.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 12:15 PM, alantin said:

Feel free to ignore this advice at your own peril and at the expense of your pronunciation. ?

 

Hopefully, people take your advice and can afford it. But, people have various reasons for making different choices. I would want the great information in Chinese Made Easier, even if I had a tutor. I definitely feel sorry for people who studied Chinese in universities, went to China, and found that they couldn’t understand anyone and vice versa.

 

As for me, my goal is to be able to understand what people are saying in Chinese TV dramas. So, my focus is on listening, not speaking.

 

Also, I’m a little different than most. Chinese was my first language. But, I’ve lost almost all of it. I’ve always been around Chinese-speaking people, so I’m very familiar with how it should sound. If I ever progress to speaking, my gut instincts are that I won’t need a tutor.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 12:15 PM, alantin said:

P.s. That being said, take a look at the say it right series by Chinesepod. It has really good explanations and discussion about pronunciation:
https://chinesepod.com/lessons/the-say-it-right-series

 

Thanks, I’ll take a look at it.

 

[alantin]

Haha! @MTH123 please don't take me wrong! I meant that as a general advice "for the new and independent student".

 

Also even if you are a broke student, I think you should be able to pay a tutor on iTalki or a similar platform for an hour or two to work on your pronunciation. I can't stress that enough! My personal experience with Chinese is that even after doing it like this, a new teacher, once asked about my pronunciation (I like to sometimes take classes with a new teacher on iTalki just to get a fresh take on my pronunciation), told me to not worry about my tones because my initials were off. Then, once she approved of my initials, she told me that my tones were also off, but she thought the initials were more important to get right at that point... ? Plus, I've listened to quite a few foreigners with pronunciations I expect to be even more atrocious than mine.

 

However, if you have history with the language, like you do, then you probably don't need that pronunciation drilling, but if you don't have any exposure, I find any written description of pronunciation is going fall short.

Chinesepod Say it Right Series is also behind a paywall, but it is hands down the best introduction on Chinese pronunciation I've seen.

[MTH123]

On 4/22/2022 at 3:24 PM, alantin said:

Haha! @MTH123 please don't take me wrong! I meant that as a general advice "for the new and independent student".

 

No worries! I didn't take you wrong. I was struggling with how to describe my unusual circumstances. I write posts like these more for others who might find it interesting or useful, not for myself. It's even better when someone else adds to the discussion. I like to have expert opinions and sometimes more than one, depending on the topic. (I see you do the same for pronunciation.)

 

I never know where posts like these go, because every independent learner has to decide for themselves what interests them and what may work for them. The cautions about not picking up bad pronunciation habits are pretty prominent, so I assume an independent learner would be wary about it. For example, each independent learner has to decide when to hire a tutor. Is it right at the beginning? Is it after six months? When?

 

On 4/22/2022 at 3:24 PM, alantin said:

Chinesepod Say it Right Series is also behind a paywall, but it is hands down the best introduction on Chinese pronunciation I've seen.

 

For the people out there who are on a tight budget, would you mind taking a look at Chinese Made Easier or First Steps in Chinese to see how it compares with Chinesepod?

 

[suMMit]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:15 AM, alantin said:

The best advice I can give for learning pronunciation is NEVER as a beginner to try to do it without a native tutor to tell you if you're doing it right and guide you on how to do it. Once a native tells you that you're getting it right, those English explanations and diagrams are going to be useful, but NEVER before. You'll just end up with bad habits that are extremely difficult to get rid of later. Especially if the sounds in the target language are very different from anything you already know.

 

Feel free to ignore this advice at your own peril and at the expense of your pronunciation. ?

I think this is great advice. The first thing I did when I started learning Chinese was to hire a face-to-face tutor to help me with the pronunciation and tones. We went through the FSI pinyin pronunciation section together. I don't remember how long we spent on it(we're talking many sessions), but it seemed like an eternity of repeating her saying bu / cu / du / ru / shu / tu , bu4 / cu4 / du4 / ru4 / shu4 / tu4 , bu2 / cu2 / du2 / ru2 / shu2 / tu2 , cai, /can/ ce/ ci / cou/ cu,  blah blah, or whatever they were. I'd repeat her, she'd correct me. Constant correction. Telling me tongue up, higher, higher, now tongue behind the teeth, no, like this, repeat me, ok better, almost , again, yes that's it, need to push out air, again, again, again, etc. It was very boring and at times frustrating, but without that I don't know how you can know if you are making the sounds correctly?

 

@MTH123obv for you as an abc with a background in chinese this might not be necessary. But it also couldn't hurt as a quick refresher.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 8:00 AM, MTH123 said:

For the people out there who are on a tight budget, would you mind taking a look at Chinese Made Easier or First Steps in Chinese to see how it compares with Chinesepod?

The advantage with the Chinesepod one(I've also watched it, as my company gives us a free cpod subscription) is that its a video course, so you can see them demonstrate. I remember there being some nice tips in that series. However, you still can't get any feedback on your attempt. The Chinese Made easier one would be better if done with a native, whether online or in person. One could find a tutor on italki to do that for less than 10usd an hour.

[Flickserve]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:15 AM, alantin said:

 

The best advice I can give for learning pronunciation is NEVER as a beginner to try to do it without a native tutor to tell you if you're doing it right and guide you on how to do it. Once a native tells you that you're getting it right, those English explanations and diagrams are going to be useful, but NEVER before. You'll just end up with bad habits that are extremely difficult to get rid of later

 

Seeing how hard it is for Chinese speakers to pronounce English accurately, the opposite must be true. 

 

(I don't know whether native speakers of other European languages have it easier to learn Chinese)

[laoyumi]

As a teacher with more than 17-year teaching experience,  I have a few suggestions.

 

1 Before you start.

Do the two following 2 things.

(1)Figure out why you want to learn Chinese.

(2)Set a clear goal, like fluent in daily conversation in one year, be able to discuss business in Chinese in 2 years. Make sure that this goal is achievable. Go and as ask a professional teacher if you are not sure.

 

2 After you start.

(1) You can learn on your own, but you do need a teacher for a while. The earlier the better.

(2)Do not depend too much on free resources.  Paid products normally are better.

(3) Practice, practice, practice. Practice makes perfect. You need to immerse yourself in Chinese environment.

(4) Do remember to learn Characters, because it can help you more and more when you moving forward.

 

Hope these can help. 

 

[MTH123]

Thank you for your first post.

 

On 4/28/2022 at 8:17 AM, laoyumi said:

(2)Do not depend too much on free resources.  Paid products normally are better.

 

Would you please expand on this? The decisions to make about spending money aren't easy, especially for someone on a tight budget.

 

On 4/28/2022 at 8:17 AM, laoyumi said:

(3) Practice, practice, practice. Practice makes perfect. You need to immerse yourself in Chinese environment.

 

How do you suggest that one immerse themself in a Chinese environment?