Advanced Chinese Study - where next . . .

[Horse]

I've got HSK level 9 and dont really want to study anymore of it because there are only so many articles you can read on the soil acidity suitable for growing persimmon trees, and also becase I'm not convinced of it's benefit to one's overall Chinese ability, ie; passing the HSK doesn't necessarily prove you are good at Chinese it proves you are good at taking the HSK exam.

I've applied for a course in translation studies, but after a very rigorous interview and exam i dont really feel my Chinese is up to the required level yet.

What I'm looking for is a course of Chinese study that can take my Chinese further while, still being reasonably stimulating.

I could study at the local unis here but I haven't heard great reports about them, they dont have any academic standing, and I know that regardless of your age the teachers there still try to treat their students like kids.

I am prepared to travel, so if anyone knows of a good course anywhere they can recommend i would be well grateful.

Cheers

[kdavid]

What about getting a job working with a bunch of locals? I've thought about how great one's Chinese would be after a few months of working with locals selling clothes in some mall or something.

Sure, the work might be degrading, and there are probably plenty of employers who wouldn't hire you, probably because they'd consider you a distraction, but if you could land a job like that you'd be speaking all day everyday and certainly improve quite quickly.

Or what about doing an advanced degree in a non-language major (e.g. Chinese literature/history)? If you've gotten a 9 on the HSK your reading/writing must be pretty good, so I don't think you'd have a problem. I think the issue here would be that you wouldn't get much speaking practice as you'd mostly be attending lectures and whatnot.

Not to hijack your thread here, but I'd be interested in hearing experiences from those who have participated in a non-language advanced degree program and what their experience was.

[Horse]

To be fair thats a pretty ridiculous suggestion. I've got a degree from an red-brick British university and my Chinese is now past Bachelor degree standard. I'm looking for a way to improve my Chinese before applying for jobs with the British government and translation positions. I'm not really up for sitting in a clothes shop for 20 kuai a day having the same conversation about size/colour, while Chinese people snigger at the spectacle of a foreigner working in a clothes shop. Thats not even taking into account the fact the shop wouldn't have any authorisation to hire foreigners etc.

[roddy]

I think at that level your options are the expensive ones - programs like IUP, CET or the pricier schools like TLI.

[gato]

Why don't you design a course for yourself and work with a private tutor one-on-one?

For example, you could work your way through this list of Top 100 Modern Chinese Novels and meet with a tutor to discuss once or twice a week.

As for you for finding a tutor, you can go to a site like zhantai.com and contact those who have advertised their tutoring services. Most of them are more used to prepping high school kids for college entrance exams, but I'm sure you can find someone suitable if you are open-minded.

[imron]

Soil acidity suitable for growing persimmon trees might seem useless, but just wait until you're interpreting for the trade delegation looking to import persimmon trees and wondering whether or not the UK soil acidity is appropriate for them and you'll be thankful Well maybe it won't happen exactly like that, but you never know what kind of seemingly useless vocabulary you'll need in the future.

The HSK might seem pointless in some respects but it does cover a number of skills that are going to be useful in a translating/interpreting career such as being able to remember key names, dates and figures from long sequences of rapid-fire speech etc. The exam maintainers also state that people who obtain a level-11 are qualified for medium-level translation/interpreting work. There's also a big difference between a level 9 and a level 11.

Anyway, as for where to go now, I guess it depends on how you got the 9. Was it a level 10 or 11 in any sections but then a 9 in others meaning that your overall score was dragged down, or was it 9s all the way? This should give you some idea on where you need to focus your time.

You might also consider enrolling in courses for the China Accreditation Test for Translators and Interpreters. See here for Heifeng's write up of the exam, including preparation for it and later on her thoughts on taking it. It would also give you the language immersion of a Chinese clothing-stall without the problems you mentioned above (except for maybe the first class, but then the novelty would wear off).

Another thing you could try is enrolling in a Chinese masters program in your area of interest at a university that does have international standing - but this probably limits you to Beida, Tsinghua and Fudan.

Edited May 14, 2009 at 07:19 AM by imron
Heifeng, your English Amplitude needs improving ;-)

[gato]

Yeah, a few people posting here have take courses in degree programs at Chinese universities (Fudan and BNU). They all seem to have found it to be a great boost to their Chinese skills, but had mostly negative things to say about the quality of the teaching and enthusiasm of the students. So it's a mixed bag. Should be interesting, though.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=138512#post138512

Chinese "Ivy League"? And Masters Degrees

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/19823-studying-chinese-literature-at-bnu&highlight=classical

Studying Chinese literature at BNU

[Horse]

Thanks guys there is some really good stuff there, definitely given me more options than i thought. If there is any more good suggestions please keep them coming.

Cheers

[Yang Rui]

If it's a decent textbook you're looking for, you could try The Independent Reader by Vivian Ling. In Chinese the book is called 從精讀到泛讀 (it's in traditional characters).

http://www.amazon.com/Independent-Reader-Vivian-Ling/dp/9576384125/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242349566&sr=1-5

http://www.smcbook.com.tw/shop2/product_info.php/info/p12485_The-Independent-Reader------------------.html/XTCsid/4litq2fr66tb8vv9rp9b10chh0

ISBN: 9576384125

The aim of the book is to take you from a level where you're reading a narrow range of texts aimed at learners to a level where you have the ability to interpret for yourself a huge range of writings and maintain an academic discussion (ie. the level of your English). That may seem a little simple as you can probably already read newspapers etc, but I found that this book forces you to recognise your inadequacies (because you will have some) and fix them.

You'd probably need a decent teacher to go through it with you to force you to use and properly assimilate all the vocab it teaches.

Another point worth bearing in mind is that this book is used in Taiwan. I don't know if you have much experience of Taiwan, but their writing seems (to me at least) to be much more complex and rich in different vocabulary. If you're bored of HSK-style stuff and the cliches of Mainland Chinese texts (改革开放以来...etc etc) then it might be a good chance to see a different type of Chinese.

One extra point: I came across this textbook while studying at Cheng Kung University 國立成功大學 in Tainan, Taiwan. They have a good language programme, including one-on-one tuition. You could look that up. I think Taiwan is a good place to study - confusing at first because of the differences between Mainland and Taiwanese Chinese, but ultimately a good experience that will give you a broader experience of the language.

Edited May 15, 2009 at 02:07 AM by Yang Rui

[roddy]

Have edited in a slightly more specific title for the topic

In your position I think I'd go for one year at a Chinese university, studying whatever field I'd like to be working in, in Chinese. Ie, you say you want to apply for translation jobs with the UK government - so trade, international relations, whatever. See Wushijiao's post which Gato links to. Do that, and treat it also as a language learning exercise so you're acquiring massive amounts of vocab; stretching your speaking skills in seminars or whatever it is they have - I reckon you'll pull your language up as much as you would by any other method, you'll learn at least a bit about the field, and it looks a bit more impressive: 'studied Chinese for a year' versus 'studied IR in Chinese for a year.'

Incidentally, I'm sure lots of us would be interested to know about the translation course you applied for and the interview, etc. Perhaps another topic though . . .

[Horse]

Yeah thanks Roddy. That's definitely an option to look into.

If others are interested, the course i applied for was an MA in Translation and Interpreting at Nottingham University, Ningbo. The interview consisted of a brief self-introduction, then a listening excercise (similar in difficulty to HSK advanced material except that you had to relay the whole thing in English rather than answer questions), then there was an essay writing task which was basically exactly the same as HSK in terms of topic and time limit, and finally there was a real-time translation of an essay on stem cell research which i was asked to translate from English into Chinese as i read it.

Having never attempted anything like before and being confronted with a lot of stuff about 'haemobiologists' it was pretty tough.

Still waiting on the results which will be out in a week, but barring some miracle on the writing component I'm not expecting to be offered a place. The course is actually designed for Chinese people who have a very high standard of English and aside from me there was only 1 other foreigner who had applied, so i can imagine with my 4 years of Chinese study to their 10 years of English I might be lagging behind

[heifeng]

Heifeng, your English Amplitude needs improving ;-)

Good Lord, tell me about it...Actually I don't think they even know what the "A" in Catti is suppose to stand for, accreditation, aptitude, amplitude:mrgreen: whateva...that's why you just need a cool acryonym

anyway there is alot of truth in this:

There's also a big difference between a level 9 and a level 11.

Plus, the HSK to me is like graduating from 初中 （seriously, 初中students have better writing skills than an 11 on the HSK), so if you are in a mood for something more challenging, there is definitely not a shortage of study materials for everything under the sun in China.

I think that once you are in the 'advanced' stage, the hardest thing to do is transition to a 'professional' level. But usually you gain professional knowlege in a certain area (even in your native language), so you really need to just get out and start gaining experience then you'll also determine if you like the work or not....besides the real learning comes from the hours you spend practicing or working. Classes are just a way to guide you and keep you on track and are nice to meet people with similar interests..etc.

Having never attempted anything like before and being confronted with a lot of stuff about 'haemobiologists' it was pretty tough.

I would definitely recommend CATTI type stuff if you are interested in such practice then, and you can always practice sight translation, retelling, active listening, shadowing, etc... on your own...there are soooo many (fun) exercises, you'll realize there just aren't enough hours in 1 day to practice enough:mrgreen:

[...ok, I'm off to my flight and likely be quarantined for a week if i "win" the swine flu lottery on my flight..and yes I AM bringing my catti and PSC books since I may have alot of time on my hands..]

[amandagmu]

It's very overpriced, but the ICLP program in Taipei might be what you're looking for. With the number of teachers and courses available there, not to mention you're on the campus of a prestigious university (國立台灣大學，the best in Taiwan) and close to 中央研究院 (free shuttle service from 台大), you can probably tailor something that suits your needs. Also, a few of the better teachers there have a lot of experience working with students who, like myself, need to do some textual translation for the sake of research (I'm a PhD student in Chinese history in the U.S.).

While I still have mixed feelings about the tuition cost at ICLP (as people do of IUP), they will work with you in a small group or individual setting on a range of topics. If you're interested in TV or radio shows (comedy, plays, news, etc), or business (or finance or economics), or history (modern, ancient, contemporary etc), or politics, or fiction they have courses tailored to these subjects. I took two courses on newspaper readings and we covered a range of subjects on things like sports competitions, doctors without borders, HIV, earthquakes and the aftermath in Sichuan, etc. My level is not as high as yours, but it was significantly higher following the program.

Outside of class, I attended lectures and talks in Chinese (and at times in a mix of Chinese/English) with visiting scholars to NTU and Academia Sinica. These ranged from undergraduate lectures in sports history (my sub-field), to a philosophical discussion on Foucault's concept of problematization and genealogies with a visiting scholar, to a talk about theories and methods for handling Aboriginal peoples in Taiwan (and their recent development of re-creating the "traditional" aboriginal lifestyle) with a professor from Academia Sinica. None of these cost me anything extra, I just kept up to date with the schedule for the institutions and picked what I wanted to go to. The local bookstores in the areas also have book discussions. There's a big chain called cheng pin 成品 that also carries books in traditional and simplified characters. Lots of popular books (and translated ones) as well. This is much like a chain bookstore in any English-speaking country, with free programs all the time and a printed schedule of events for each store.

Good luck.

[amandagmu]

I forgot to mention. I tutored while I was in Taiwan and ran into quite a few students who took translation classes at nearby universities. I would bet that those places and/or Taida have some specialists in the field who might be willing to work something out with you.

[Horse]

Excellent post. Thanks very much Amanda. I had heard good things about ICLP, I'm checking it out now. The fees are a bit of a shock!