University Major?

[OneEye]

I'm returning to school this fall, changing fields, etc. I want to focus on etymology of Chinese characters for my research in grad school, but before I get to that point I need some help deciding what to major in for my BA.

The university I'll be attending for undergrad doesn't have a Chinese major (which would be the obvious choice) and I don't have the option of choosing a different university for now (wife's career keeps us here for the moment). I thought about international studies, with an emphasis in East Asian studies. The only problem I see with that is that I have to pick a secondary focus (besides "regional studies"), and since the major is part of the political science department, the options are things like diplomacy, economics, etc. Not really related to what I want to do.

The other options I've come up with are history with a minor in Chinese, and general studies. The general studies allows you to create your own degree plan by picking classes from 3 different departments, so I thought maybe Chinese, history, and something else (art? archaeology? anthropology?).

I know it won't matter a whole lot which one I pick as far as admission to grad school because most of the grad programs I've looked at only require a BA (nonspecific) and a certain number of Chinese classes. What I'm trying to figure out is which major will prepare me the best academically for my grad studies.

Thanks in advance for any help, and let me know if more info is needed or if I'm being unclear. It's late.

[chrix]

(I'm assuming you're based in the US)

well if they don't have anything else, and then it's East Asian studies, I'd say. I think there you would have the best chances of being exposed to anything related to China, language courses, lectures, student activities etc. You could also study on your own and in that environment your chances of finding a tutor who could help you with that would be highest.

Yeah, it's a problem, those Asian Studies programs are often quite skewed towards politics and economics, even their proponents always flaunt their multi-disciplinary approach. Well I guess two or three already makes multi...

my 2 cents...

[gato]

It sounds like you are going to start over as a freshman, so the field is wide open? What school are you going to? I would choose either history or international studies, depending on which departments is the stronger one at your school. History would probably let you specialize in Chinese language and culture, if that is what you want to do. But if the history department at your school doesn't have any professor who's competent in Chinese history, then that would be moot.

[jiangping]

It kinda depends on what sort of research you want to do, but some classes in linguistics (especially historical linguistics) and phonetics might be a good idea too.

Again, it depends on what kinda stuff you're going to be researching exactly, but maybe even taking some Japanese (or other East Asian languages, though one can only study so much!) would be a good idea too. I minor in Chinese at university here in England, and most of the good postgrad sinology courses like you either to have some Japanese before you go, or make you learn some while there. This is basically because Japan has done a lot of good sinological work. Also, because Japan took a lot of loan words from Chinese around the Tang dynasty (I think) it can be quite useful in working out the old pronunciations of characters.

If they have it, taking some classes in classical Chinese would be a great idea too.

I just reread your post, and I realised that I haven't answered it at all, primarily because I don't know how the american university system works:P Though I guess majoring in something like history or linguistics would be good.

Edited May 15, 2009 at 09:39 AM by jiangping

[xianu]

Your school sounds a lot like ours! Our IS program is also very econ/poli-sci based, and we only offer a minor in Chinese (in fall 2009). I know when I was in undergrad, I would not have done the IS, and would probably have created my own major in Chinese. Were you at my school, and wanted to pursue this course of study, I would suggest you minor in Chinese, and major in something like linguistics, classics, phislophy, or anthro, history, or even English (if you can do medieval English lit or something). For Chinese etymology and philology, what would help you most aside from both modern and classical Chinese courses, would be any course of study that would require you to do a close reading and careful analysis of the language of any particular text. Good luck!

[OneEye]

Thanks for the replies; they are all helpful. Of course, with every new bit of info, more questions arise. First though, I'll explain a little more.

I'll be going to the University of North Texas this fall. I already have a Bachelor of Music degree but have neither the opportunity nor the desire to work in music anymore. I've been working in retail management for the last several years and I'm sick of it. I've been kicking around the idea of going back to school for a while but several things in my life have lined up recently that have pushed me to finally take the step.

My biggest interest is in the Chinese characters themselves and their etymology. There are so many related fields that go into this subject, which is why I'm having a difficult time deciding on a major. If UNT offered undergrad degrees in Chinese or Linguistics that would make my choice easier, but they don't. Several majors I've considered are:

International Studies (Regional Studies emphasis - East Asia)

Anthropology (Linguistic Anthropology emphasis) with a minor in Chinese (didn't mention this before)

History with a minor in Chinese or Asian Studies (not really considering this anymore)

General Studies (pick three focal areas - Foreign Languages, Linguistics, either Anthropology or History)

I have been considering taking Japanese while I'm there because it does seem that most graduate programs expect it (if not during undergrad then at least during grad school). They don't offer 文言 courses, but I may study some on my own and possibly find a tutor.

There are probably other majors I haven't thought of that would also be relevant.

I found out that the History department focuses on US history for their undergrad program, and my only option would be to do an "interdisciplinary minor" in Asian Studies, so that's why I'm not really considering the major anymore.

The International Studies major requires 3 years in a foreign language but besides that the only primarily Asia-related classes would be "East Asian Philosophy and Religion," "Imperial China," and "Modern China" (both history courses). The rest are basically survey courses of world cultures and such. Then in my secondary area of focus, I'd take 5 economics classes. There's the big downside - if you don't count the foreign language classes, more of my classes have to do with economics than with Asia or Chinese.

The Anthropology major with a minor in Chinese seems like a good option. The Anthropology department offer courses for people who want to specialize in Linguistic Anthropology, which seems like it would be a good foundation for the graduate work I want to pursue.

From Wikipedia's article on Anthropology:

Linguistic anthropology....is divided into its own subfields: ....historical linguistics, including the reconstruction of past languages, from which our current languages have descended

From the Wikipedia article on Historical Linguistics:

Historical linguistics (also called diachronic linguistics) is the study of language change. It has five main concerns:

* to describe and account for observed changes in particular languages;

* to reconstruct the pre-history of languages and determine their relatedness, grouping them into language families (comparative linguistics);

* to develop general theories about how and why language changes;

* to describe the history of speech communities;

* to study the history of words, i.e. etymology.

One major downfall of the anthropology major is that it would take me a year longer to finish the degree because there are more course requirements that I didn't meet with my previous major than in the International Studies program, and since I would also be minoring in Chinese.

Continued in the next post...

Edited May 16, 2009 at 05:47 AM by OneEye

[OneEye]

The General Studies degree sounds pretty good. They require you to pick 3 areas of concentration, so I think a combination of Foreign Languages with two other areas (Linguistics, Anthropology, and History). I'm not sure if Linguistics can be one of the concentrations, since most of their courses are at the graduate level. If that isn't possible, it narrows it down for me. Here are the course options I think I'd be interested in for each department (I'd only be required to pick 4 from each of the 3 departments I choose):

LING 3060 Principles of Language Study

LING 4040 General Linguistics

LING 5020 Principles and Methods of Historical Linguistics

LING 5040 Principles of Linguistics

LING 5060 Second Language Acquisition

HIST 3750 Greek Civilization

HIST 3760 Roman Civilization

HIST 4550 Imperial China

HIST 4560 Modern China

HIST 4570 Japanese History

JAPN 3060 Advanced Topics in Japanese Language

JAPN 3070 Advanced Topics in Japanese Culture

CHIN 3060 Advanced Topics in Chinese Language

CHIN 3070 Advanced Topics in Chinese Culture

ANTH 3100 Far East

ANTH 4010 Language and Culture

ANTH 4250 Anthropological Thought

ANTH 4610 Human Language and Linguistics

I know Greek and Roman history doesn't have much to do with anything else, but the history department is pretty limited as far as East Asian courses.

The only thing I'm worried about with a General Studies major is the stereotype it seems to have as the "slacker degree." But I think that once the graduate department I apply to sees the transcript though, they'll know it isn't a blow off degree. I think it offers the best chance to get a solid grounding in the field before beginning grad work.

Thoughts? I know I wrote a ton of stuff, thanks if you managed to read it all (or even if you didn't )

[gato]

Univ. of North Texas has a famous music program, particularly in jazz. Were you part of that?

As for your degree, maybe you can go talk to Prof. Harold Tanner in the history department. He specializes in Chinese history and might be able to advise you which departments on campus might be the best fit for you.

http://www.hist.unt.edu/tanner/index.htm

Prof. Harold Tanner

On another point, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a PhD on Chinese etymology. I think you'd have to broaden your horizon a bit if you want to have a career in academia rather than just a hobby. (Have you read John DeFrancis's or Victor Mair's books on the Chinese language?)

Speaking of careers, I think you also need to pursue a backup plan in case academia doesn't work out.

[chrix]

I can only second gato's points. If you want to pursue a career in academia, you have to be sure to pursue something which will also make you marketable, competition on the job market is fierce.

Another problem with the fields of lingustics and anthropology is that their are incredibly diverse, there's different traditions and academic schools, and you have to be aware of that before you start grad school. And linguistic anthrpology is quite a confusing term. From the same school I know people whose work is quite similar to what I'm pursuing, and I know some whose research interests are still somehow related to language use, but outside the scope of mainstream linguistics (might still work for anthropology though, but I'm not an anthropologist so I don't know).

But for the BA degree, the choice of major doesn't matter too much, probably more the GPA and later your GRE results are more important than the actual details of that. So I would choose something that interests you, and for instance would allow you to follow your passion for Chinese etymology.

By the time you're ready to apply for grad school, you should have a good grasp of the fields and what kind of research program would work and which wouldn't. I'm assuming you're considering moving for grad school later, because the choice of the right proigram is very important. If you go to a department whose research interests don't align with yours due to other factors, chances are that either you will have to realign your interests and might end up not liking what you're doing, or your interests will continue to clash with those of the department, which usually doesn't end well either.

If you have specific questions about linguistics programs in Texas, feel free to PM me...

[philo-publius]

If I were you I'd stick to a major something more general then linguistic anthropology. Therefor I'd probably say go with the General Studies and then in Grad school go with something more specialized. I'm majoring in East-Asian studies which I'm happy with because it deals with politics, history and economics.

[OneEye]

gato,

I didn't go to UNT for my first bachelor's. I went to Berklee College of Music. My wife got her bachelor's in music education from UNT though. My degree was a Bachelor of Music in Film Scoring. I don't really want to move to LA, and the job market is way over-saturated there anyway, so that career is out (without too many regrets, honestly). I thought about doing grad work in ethnomusicology, but I don't think I have enough interest in that to get me through the PhD (I did some research projects and presentations on Irish folk and traditional Japanese music during undergrad though).

My primary interest for the last several years has been Chinese, and I've always been interested in languages (learned some Spanish as a little kid, I've always wanted to learn Chinese and Japanese, some basic French ability, did a research paper on Tolkien's Elvish languages in High School, etc.).

side note: I wasn't looking for a PhD in Chinese Etymology, but a PhD in Asian Cultures and Languages (or similar) where my focus could be researching etymology. I was unclear about that.

And I will be getting in touch with Dr. Tanner. Thanks for that.

To all:

The feedback has been very helpful. I think you guys are right that I need to pursue a more general degree for undergrad, rather than trying to force a degree into a specific niche (the general studies degree). I know grad school will be where I concentrate on depth, while undergrad is more about depth. I should have learned that the first time around (my degree was pretty specific!).

After looking around some more, I realized that there's another secondary option under the International Studies degree that may work better. Instead of "International Business and Economics," my secondary focus could be "International Development." There are economics, anthropology, linguistics, political science, and sociology courses under that concentration, so I wouldn't be stuck with 5 econ courses. This seems to be the most well-rounded choice and would be very useful if academia doesn't work out (hopefully that won't be an issue).

So the degree would look like this (excluding classes that will transfer from my previous degree):

MATH - 3 hrs above college algebra

SCIENCE - 12 hours (including labs) from Natural and Life Sciences or Physical Sciences

US HISTORY - 6 hrs (HIST 2610 and HIST 2620)

AMERICAN GOVERMENT - 6 hrs (PSCI 1040 and PSCI 1050)

FOREIGN LANGUAGE - 6 hrs (2nd year level) plus 6 hrs upper level

INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: PRIMARY AREA - 21 hrs

REGIONAL STUDIES - EAST ASIA

ANTH 2100 World Cultures through Film

HIST 1060 World History from 16th Century

ANTH 3100 People & Cultures

PHIL 3595 East Asian Philosophy and Religion

HIST 4550 Imperial China

HIST 4560 Modern China

PSCI 4640 Revolution and Political Violence

INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: SECONDARY AREA - 15 hrs

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

ECON 4600 Economic Development

PSCI 4620 Political Change

ANTH 4610 Topics in Socio-Cultural Anthropology

ECON 4100 Comparative Economic Systems

ANTH 4010 Language and Culture

Thanks again for all the help, guys. Any other comments are more than welcome and much appreciated.

[gato]

You should take more econ courses since it seems to be a weakness for you (perhaps math as well?). Undergrad should be a time to attack your weaknesses. Having some econ under your belt would also make you more marketable should you not pursue the academia route.

[OneEye]

Sorry I'm just now getting back to this. Thanks for all the help. I'll be meeting with my advisor soon so I should be able to iron these issues out.

I have another question, however. As mentioned by jiangping, most grad programs require proficiency in a second East Asian language in addition to Chinese, generally not by the time you start but at least by the time you finish. Since Japanese is a language (and culture) that I'm very interested in and have been for a long time, I'd like to go ahead and start as soon as I can.

I'll be able to start classes at the third year level in Chinese this fall due to my previous study, but my knowledge of Japanese is essentially zero aside from hiragana, katakana, and a few phrases. I'm familiar with lot of kanji because of my knowledge of Chinese, but obviously not with their readings or usages in Japanese.

My question is: would it be unreasonable to take both Chinese and Japanese courses at the same time, considering my level in each? The majority of my other courses will be survey courses, so there won't be a lot of work-intensive courses competing for study time. While I was studying music I nearly drowned some semesters from the amount of output I had to do (composition, performance, analysis, recording sessions etc.), so I didn't have time for much else. Most of these survey-type classes will be more along the lines of "learn the material and spit it back out for the exam," which will be made much easier with an SRS.

My current plan is to take upper level Chinese courses along with lower level Japanese courses each semester. The last (fifth) semester would be upper level courses in both languages. I may have the chance to do some study abroad in China during the summer semesters, so my level in Chinese should be quite far ahead of Japanese by that time.

Am I thinking too wishfully?

edit: It may be best to move this thread into the Studying Chinese outside of China forum.

[chrix]

As far as I understand, the requirements for the second language in most Asian studies programs are not too high. I realise this doesn't answer your question, but I don't think it should be too much of a burden. I think Japanese and Chinese are sufficiently different from each other that you shouldn't experience any difficulties (unlike studying Spanish and Portuguese, or Danish and Swedish at the same time).... the characters might even help...

[OneEye]

That's what I was thinking. And hoping. My main concern is that they're supposed to be two of the most difficult languages to learn.

Back to my original question: after a little more digging, it looks like a major in History with a minor in Chinese is another possibility. The History department doesn't have a lot of Asian History courses, but they offer enough for me to choose Asian History as a concentration within the major. I would also be able to minor in Chinese, or even double minor in Chinese and Japanese in the same amount of time it would take for a major in International Studies. And I'd also have time for study abroad, all while finishing in the same amount of time as it would take to do an International Studies major.

But like I said I'll be meeting with an advisor soon. I'm also trying to get in touch with Dr. Tanner (like gato suggested), who directs the Asian Studies minor. Hopefully I'll get this all figured out soon.

[gato]

I think you should concentrate on one language first, maybe reaching a level where you can read a book and understand a movie, before moving to a second. Learning either Chinese or Japanese takes a lot of time. Doing both at the same time would spread yourself too thin, I think. Wouldn't you rather be fluent in one foreign language rather than just "advanced-beginner" in two?

[chrix]

often, the second language is merely a degree requirement. I think a lot also depends on how much Mandarin the OP already knows. If you're starting from scratch, then you shouldn't do it, but if you're kinda reactivating what you've learned before, then I don't see a big problem. Of course if you wanted to master both languages, this might be different.

[OneEye]

I think you should concentrate on one language first, maybe reaching a level where you can read a book and understand a movie, before moving to a second. Learning either Chinese or Japanese takes a lot of time. Doing both at the same time would spread yourself too thin, I think. Wouldn't you rather be fluent in one foreign language rather than just "advanced-beginner" in two?

I'll most likely be starting at the third year level in Chinese, if that makes any difference. I've looked through the textbooks they use (Integrated Chinese series) and knew pretty much all the material. I'll be brushing up on what I don't know over the next three months before the proficiency exam. My knowledge of Japanese is next to zero.

And yes, ideally I'd rather reach fluency in Chinese before I begin Japanese. But I think having some level of proficiency in both would give me a better shot at getting into a good grad program. For example, on Harvard's (extreme example, I know) website it says they give strong preference to applicants who are already prepared to meet the language requirements (4th year Chinese, 3rd year Japanese, 2nd year Classical Chinese).

So if it's doable without going insane, I'd like to try. I know it will be a lot of hard work.

often, the second language is merely a degree requirement. I think a lot also depends on how much Mandarin the OP already knows. If you're starting from scratch, then you shouldn't do it, but if you're kinda reactivating what you've learned before, then I don't see a big problem. Of course if you wanted to master both languages, this might be different.

Mastery of both is a long term goal, yes. But for now I'm more concerned with being ready to meet whatever language requirement I may face in grad school.

[gato]

I'll most likely be starting at the third year level in Chinese, if that makes any difference. I've looked through the textbooks they use (Integrated Chinese series) and knew pretty much all the material.

Third-year level in a US college program in Chinese is still beginner level. Many people on this forum study for two or more years in Chinese before they can get a 6 on the HSK, which is intermediate.

To be considered an intermediate learner, you should be able to read comfortably an average newspaper. For advanced, I think you'd have to read comfortably a literary novel of moderate difficulty. It's the same standard I would apply to a learner of European languages. Of course, it would take much less time to reach intermediate level in another European language for a native English speaker.

[OneEye]

Ok. Thanks for the help.

After having more time to think about it, it looks like I'll be going to University of Texas instead and majoring in Asian Cultures and Languages (Chinese). My minor will be History, and I will most likely take Japanese over the summer so it's not while I'm taking Chinese, and just first year level. That way I have some foundation but can continue studying during grad school. This seems like a more sane approach and won't take as long to finish, either.

I'll be starting at UT in the spring, so I'll be at a community college during the fall, just getting some of the core requirements done. In the spring I'll most likely start at the second year level. Their Chinese courses are much more intense than UNT's. Two years in UT's Chinese program is 18 credit hours, the same as three years at most universities.

Anyway, that's the updated plan. How does it sound? Thanks for the help, again.