Help: IT, Network Engineering & Design, Cisco

[james_moat]

I'm basically looking for some advice that seems lacking in the majority of all those internets out there...

I'm experienced with Cisco networking, specifically support and design of large-scale data networks. Cisco aren't that big in China, but I'm perfectly able to adapt to Huawei and Juniper, as well as the numerous other brands that are present in China.

I'd ideally like to work in Beijing, and I've heard that the IT market is quite different in China, particularly Beijing. In the UK network design is quite highly sought after, and respected. I'd say I enjoy the support side, but prefer the lesser working hours of the design side.

Thing is, most information about the "IT industry" in Beijing, doesn't seem to apply to the career area I'm in. In the UK IT - Information Technology - is seen as computing support, servers, etc. Software engineering is an entirely different field to IT in its own right, and computer networking and telecoms are also very much different.

Does anybody have any advice for finding work in telecoms/networking, specifically in Beijing, but in overall China? Is there anybody on this board in this industry, and if so, how exactly should I be promoting myself?

I've got a very good Bachelor's degree, many Cisco certifications, and have been fortunate enough to have hands on and design experience with many networking brands, particularly the big players. Also managed to work in multiple different industries relating to networking, including blue chip companies.

I'm slightly worried that this particular area isn't seen in China as credible a career as it is in the UK. Given the economic downturn I think an expat contract isn't likely now, but any advice is appreciated in relation to this particular industry.

Thanks.

[imron]

How good is your Chinese? That would certainly open up the doors to local Chinese companies, especially those with large networks/server farms to run such as online game and video companies - which are both strong markets at the moment.

[james_moat]

My Chinese is not so good, certainly not acceptable for business yet by any stretch of the imagination. I have been informed many of the larger networking and telecoms businesses promote English communication within the company, but as I've not worked there, I wouldn't give that as advice to anybody.

I am also a bit worried about the salary I will earn there. In the UK I have been lucky enough to have a good career in this area, with a few different, well recognized, businesses. Someone suggested English teaching to me, but I can't help but feel that's a massive step down and to the side. My CV/'resume' looks very good at the minute for the career track I have chosen, but teaching almost certainly would not compliment it, as I feel including that is a path normally taken by those who have just left university, or are filling time between a Bachelors and Masters degree, not those in the beginning to middle of a specific career.

[Xiwang]

I'm surprised to hear that Cisco is not that big in China. The Great Firewall of China as well as the tracking of citizens by the police are both supposed to utilize Cisco technology.

Nonetheless, even if true, I doubt that that would be an available career path for a foreigner.

[james_moat]

From the little I know of the 'Great Firewall' the actual router and switch implementation (some Cisco indeed, a lot of own country brand Huawei also) it is just a slightly modified typical implementation. Standard Cisco install, not too many non standard techniques deployed, just the way in which certain management systems are used mean monitoring is more prominent from the government's point of view.

I think my best chances will be with non-Chinese organisations, but I'm guessing it will take a long time to get a position there. I'd like to study my Chinese and improve upon my current qualifications anyway, but would like to know there is still a good chance of employment in Beijing in the near future.

The lack of networking discussed on Chinese expat forums, and jobs that advertise Cisco/networking expertise in the same sentence as 'Microsoft Windows administration' worries me, because in Europe those two do not mix. Network administration (PC's, servers, printers) are seen as a more basic role by the majority, particularly network engineers.

[Guest kangkang]

There are a few famous job hunting websites in China:

www.51job.com

www.zhaopin.com

you can search for network job opportunities in Beijing on these sites.

Beijing is considered to have more network/IT related job opportunites than other cities in China, however many jobs here do require fluent Chinese language capability...

[james_moat]

Update:

Been here for six months, unfortunately only been offered very low paid jobs, even as an experienced consultant and engineer.

Time to get out of China. It's a shame some industries are so little respected here - I actually think the fact that graduates here have literally no experience, let alone even a part-time job in a shop, means that 25 to 27 year old people are generally literally clueless when it comes to business here.

And that summary is fairly represented with the the majority of people I worked with here for a short time.

So, if you're in IT, it's really not worth wasting your career by starting or continuing in China, unless (a big but!) you are at a very senior level and get transferred here by a multi-national company.

[roddy]

Thanks for the follow-up, sorry things didn't work out.

The job offers that you did get - where did they come from? Speculative queries, networking, job sites?

[adrianlondon]

Interesting.

I'm a senior SAP consultant - the area I'm in is called Basis for those who know it - and I've regularly thought about working in Beijing.

If I was working for a major international company I'd probably be able to wrangle some kind of assignment or transfer, but I'm a freelance consultant and it's proving difficult. Why would some company with their IT department located in Beijing give me a contract, instead of simply offering it to one of the big consultancy firms (even though they cost more) or hiring a local and hoping for the best?

I could probably find work helping people with simple IT issues, but as you've already found out that doesn't pay too well.

[james_moat]

I would say Beijing is ideal for focused self-employed entrepreneurs. Some areas of IT simply to not have the facility for new business ideas, such as in my line of work, and I've found that even at networking events you really need to be on the business management side of the line to gain good employment here in Beijing.

Although network events and guanxi go some way here, really it is critical to understand the way in which IT simply does not map here in relation to respected skill-sets.

For example: My area is very well paid in the UK, as it really does take a lot of experience and brain power to be successful in said area. Over here? Large companies mop up eager graduates with no knowledge, pay them little knowing they have no worthy exit from the company for a long time, and train them up.

This applies to IT accounting, software programming, SAP, Oracle - you name it, the jobs at £500/£600 per day in the UK for diligent workers do not map to Beijing.

It's maybe best to keep in mind that I wasn't intent on learning Mandarin or coming here for some cultural experience. The latter was simply a by-product of my being here, but then again I am curious as to why anybody would forfeit a potentially good career in mainland Europe compared to coming here. China is 'ok', but really you have to be in architecture, financial or services industry to marry a good worth-while lifestyle, particularly in Beijing, with appreciation of this area.

Keeping in mind I'm referring to the "IT industry", your mileage may vary. Even in the UK, "IT" is seen as the low-end IT support industry, server-farms. In China it's seen as EVERYTHING, telecommunications engineering - everything is placed into this IT category if it involves computer electronics.

Why is that a bad thing? Because job adverts then state: MUST be expert in Cisco, c#, Java, SAP and so on. The simple fact is that as smart as I am nobody can be an expert in all those areas, as they are, by definition just so different.

If you speak Mandarin and English, why not try for Singapore or Taiwan? These sorts of places have definitive structures, which China simply does not have.

If I worked in HR, and seen somebody was in the middle of their career, went to China just out of a love of (the idea of?) working in China, and substantially shrank their career bubble, or even worse diverted off at a tangent into English, that would show to me a lack of rational thought.

Oh, and before I forget, if you can earn 10000-15000 per month as a beginner English teacher, and 4000 per month as someone who is very highly skilled, that strikes me as an industry structure that is massively out of sync with the rest of the world.

[woliveri]

Yes, I found the same experience in China as well in the IT world (Programming/Software Engineer).. The only way you're going to make it is to work for a foreign company who uses that technology and for whatever reason is interested in hiring "laowai" talent.

What you could do is open a school teaching the technology you're skilled at or just teach English and enjoy living in China.

[adrianlondon]

I don't speak much Mandarin; I just love these forums after spending half a year in Beijing three years ago ;)

So I'm back kind of where I was before. As a SAP consultant I'm paid pretty well in the UK/Europe as you already mentioned. And last time I simply took 5 months off and went to BNU to study Mandarin and just take a break. If the pay here is still bad (as my skills aren't recognised or needed) then I'm better off sticking with that. Earn twice as much in Europe and only work 6 months of the year. Kind of.

[james_moat]

Given that the majority of Chinese businesses still have severe issues with using pirated software and OSs on their hardware, I suppose it will take a while for things to gradually get more professional, where a pirated copy of XP in the office is seen the way it is in the UK. Unsafe, and likely to gain a beating from someone from the security department.

In a business I would have a direct relationship with the various vendors, but that seems to be not the case here. Things are just done as good as has to be for that time, without future-proofing being a consideration. Although telecommunications here is currently a closed shop, keep in mind that most businesses have at least a network, and if you apply that logic to the larger businesses, there should be opportunities. These jobs are the ones that basically want an all singing all dancing person to do everything and be rushed off their feet on 75 hour per week stints. Worth it? No chance.

The combination of pollution and business aggro here has really put me off recommending anybody to come to Beijing in search of employment. Obviously if you are still interested, get your resumé/CV up on 51job.com, chinahr.com and zhaopin.com - but statistics seem to suggest getting a chance through those avenues are not so great. Still seems that it is very much "who you know, not what you know" here, and maybe being highly qualified is just not going to cut the mustard.

On the upside, perhaps in the future industries will gain respect here where this is due. Forget my side or complicated relational databases, even lawyers earn next to nothing here, even though they have to keep their knowledge updated weekly and monthly at the rate things are shifting, which says quite a lot really.

[greenarcher]

Damn this thread is really disheartening for someone who wishes to work in Beijing. I also have an IT background (networking also) but have zero working experience. I heard that employers hire people with at least 2 years of experience. How about careers which are not entirely technical but where my IT background can be useful? Do they exist and do they just pay as little? Is the IT scene in Beijing pretty much hopeless? I'm more than willing to work in a non-IT related job besides teaching english as long as the pay is pretty decent, probably around 7-8k RMB? Or is this too far-fetched for someone with no working experience? I haven't taken the HSK but I'm estimating my current level to be around 4 or 5 with 2 months more to go. I heard it's fairly easy to get into the hotel industry but the pay is really low, any comments on this? Your replies will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advanced.

[james_moat]

If you have a sense of self worth with a hefty dose of self respect, you can rule out Beijing. With the sheer amount of countries with better IT job infrastructure, you'd be stupid to choose China in my opinion.

Are you chasing after a woman or something? Don't go work in a hotel you lunatic, you do a specialist degree for a reason! I've said all I have to say in my previous posts in this thread. In China people who can't go to university do various IT, in your case as well as mine, networking professional qualifications. They then join large companies on low pay with no exit.

With no experience you're not going to get into IT or network project management. You're onto a losing game. I met plenty of foreign aimless losers in Beijing, and China is full of those. Don't go to be one of those. Perfect your Mandarin skills, work in IT in your own country, and if you're dead set on fulfilling this fantasy of yours, you can build it into your future career path in two or three years at the very least.