Well Well Well

[roddy]

This is definitely an area where you can hopefully see cultural change over time. There's pressure for legislation and enforcement, police become less reluctant to get involved in 'domestics', support such as shelters and advice are put in place, greater earning power means that getting out of an abusive situation becomes more feasible, public information campaigns encourage the reporting and tackling of abuse - there was a major one in the UK when I was at university I remember, you've got this in only the last few weeks.

There's probably little point in comparing figures from different studies done in different countries. More interesting would be looking at trends within a country over time (but good luck finding that data for China) and the causes for those changes.

[Music&MeForever]

Just for comparison, I checked Japans domestic violence rate. Japan is a well developed country with a well educated population, but it has exceptionally backwards attitudes towards women. From what I read, the rate is ~33%. Would you care to explain that?

In most non-Western countries it has got nothing to do with education. But basically there are mysogynic cultures after all and Japan is one of them Education hasn't played a significant role in this, probably because nothing has been done to improve the position of women there.

Traditionally, Japan is a mysogynic society in which women are since birth trained to be obedient to men and forever treated like ignorant children. Just look at the number of attractive young girls pursuing careers as hostesess (highly-paid 21st century geisha) and such. The origins of this still prevailing belief can no doubt be traced back to ancient Chinese mysogynic culture, of course. Actually Japanese is said to be a truly Confucian culture, the only living Confucianism today.

But it seems that there's a different process going on in China, with the reshaping of minds having started much earlier due to progressive communism (incl. All China Women's Federation), so that the many reforms of the past 80 or so years are producing positive effects in changing the mentality of even the still insufficiently educated Chinese peasant majority, compared to Japan's academically superior society (take one of Japan's incredible achievements: illiteracy outrooted, as an illustration).

But even so it seems Japanese minds haven't changed much, unfortunately.

[peekay]

In China the rate is 38%+, according to the CDC in the US it is about 10~20%. The percentages tell a very different story.

No. The 38.4% figure is a household total, i.e., counting violence against women AND spousal violence against men. It also includes any type of violence (such as verbal abuse.)

From published studies, the rate of spousal violence against women is LOWER in China than in the U.S., as I mentioned above. In the DoJ/CDC study, nearly 25 percent of surveyed US women reported physical or sexual abuse. In comparison, 16% of Chinese women have been abused by their husbands, according to ACWF studies.

Japan is a well developed country with a well educated population, but it has exceptionally backwards attitudes towards women. From what I read, the rate is ~33%. Would you care to explain that?

The 33% Japanese figure is a "domestic abuse" statistic which includes verbal abuse in its definition. So that number can't be directly compared to studies which only measures physical & sexual violence. Furthermore, the study only surveyed respondents within the Tokyo metropolitan area, and not reflective of the country as a whole.

A country-wide Survey on Domestic Violence (Japan Cabinet Office, 2002) found that 15.5% of Japanese women have suffered physical assault from their spouse or boyfriend. 19.1% have suffered some type of domestic violence (including verbal abuse, threats, etc.)

So the Japanese spousal violence against women figures do indeed appear lower than the U.S. numbers.

[chrix]

Traditionally, Japan is a mysogynic society in which women are since birth trained to be obedient to men and forever treated like ignorant children. Just look at the number of attractive young girls pursuing careers as hostesess (highly-paid 21st century geisha) and such. The origins of this still prevailing belief can no doubt be traced back to ancient Chinese mysogynic culture, of course. Actually Japanese is said to be a truly Confucian culture, the only living Confucianism today.

Do you have any studies to back that up? If you're just arguing by way of anecdote, then what do you say if I respond by saying "traditionally women take care of the financial matters of the family, for instance husbands get pocket money out of their salary from the wife, which leads to the phenomenon that most financial advertising is geared towards housewifes. Just look up the term 'Mrs Watanabe' "

Maybe the Japans we know are quite different from one another, mine is full of strong women. But I guess that's what happens if nobody backs up their arguments but just talks from their own experiences (I won't either I was just playing devil's advocate here)....

[Music&MeForever]

the Japanese spousal violence against women figures do indeed appear lower than the U.S. numbers.

The rate of domestic abuse in Japan may be lower than that in the US but that's probably because Japanese women are abuse-resistant. Or as crix calls it: "strong" (I am bad, I admit;)

what do you say if I respond by saying "traditionally women take care of the financial matters of the family, for instance husbands get pocket money out of their salary from the wife, which leads to the phenomenon that most financial advertising is geared towards housewifes. Just look up the term 'Mrs Watanabe' "

True, the woman decides on family budget But that doesn't imply she is socially nor economically equal to her husband, most of them stay at home all their lives which is as bad as can be and have to put up with many of her husbands imperfections and 'outdoors activities' = keep her mouth shut if she still wants to be Mrs Watanabe in the future

Things are changing and well-paid young Japanese women nowadays can indeed hire male geishas for fun. But is this a sign of equality or a step forward in man-woman or any social relations? I don't think so. Deviation would be more like it.

And as an illustration of the good life in Japan: too many young Japanese prefer to leave the country or have already left to live and work abroad, and most of them say they don't ever plan on going back to Japan, among them too many girls. Obviously something wrong there. And I don't think it's just economics.

[HashiriKata]

I agree with what chrix has said. Many Japanese women I know are the bosses in the house and their husbands are there only to provide the labour .

[Music&MeForever]

I agree with what chrix has said. Many Japanese women I know are the bosses in the house and their husbands are there only to provide the labour .

Poor Japanese husbands...:wink:

[chrix]

of course what I said that doesn't mean that society isn't patriarchic, the glass ceiling is still lower in Japan. But that's still a far cry from "women are since birth trained to be obedient to men and forever treated like ignorant children".

Also to play devil's avocate again: I'm not an expert in these issues, but even though I think Western countries are more advanced in this respect, I also remember studies that there's still a lot of inequality in the West, even in Scandinavia, the bastion of equality. I've read about studies to the effect that even in Scandinavia boardrooms are still quite male-dominated. So if I wanted to be provocative, couldn't we say it's just a case of 五十歩百歩 (that's how the Japanese say it )?

[Shadowdh]

Personally I think that we should forget about equality and celebrate the different strengths the sexes have... but as a witness or participant (I hesitate to use the word victim) of domestic violence its not cultural in the least... it certainly is not excusable via culture... it doesnt matter where you are from or what you believe, it happens to all...

[outcast]

The 38.4% figure is a household total, i.e., counting violence against women AND spousal violence against men.

The overwhelming percentage of that figure is violence against women.

In comparison, 16% of Chinese women have been abused by their husbands, according to ACWF studies.

Cite it. Even so, you are yet again failing to take into account the culture based unwillingness to openly discuss it. If all of it came out in the open, that figure would be much higher than the US.

But even so it seems Japanese minds haven't changed much, unfortunately

The japanese are notorious for their refusal to change, in spite of a blatant need for it. The result was 20 years of economic stagnation and a crashing population. Their culture is killing them.

This is definitely an area where you can hopefully see cultural change over time

I hope so too to be honest, it would be such a waste for things to continue as they are.

[gato]

you are yet again failing to take into account the culture based unwillingness to openly discuss it. If all of it came out in the open, that figure would be much higher than the US.

Do you have some personal experience with domestic violence? How do you know whether the rate would be higher or lower in the US?

[outcast]

I know through several means, one of which was studies done on the subject. Another is cultural acceptance of it. One more is thing is that while in the US I not once saw such terrible acts, yet in China I have seen it several times. Also I have read many accounts from other westerners describing pretty much the same thing, as in seeing it several times in china while at the same time never seeing it in their home countries, and usually no one ever does anything about it. Don't call the police, dont go to help, nothing. They are, after all, "just" girls.

[gougou]

One more is thing is that while in the US I not once saw such terrible acts, yet in China I have seen it several times.

While in the US, I never saw anybody cook on the sidewalk. In China, I did. Conclusion: Americans don't eat.

[Shadowdh]

Cite it. Even so, you are yet again failing to take into account the culture based unwillingness to openly discuss it. If all of it came out in the open, that figure would be much higher than the US.

And that only happens in China/non western based society right?? Not!!! Just because YOU dont see it does not mean its not there... in the west its become a hidden problem due to the fact that we have "laws" that are against domestic violence... but just because they are in place does not mean it does not happen. Time spent in womens refuges when I was a child showed me that the problem is more prevalent than you think...

I know through several means, one of which was studies done on the subject. Another is cultural acceptance of it. One more is thing is that while in the US I not once saw such terrible acts, yet in China I have seen it several times. Also I have read many accounts from other westerners describing pretty much the same thing, as in seeing it several times in china while at the same time never seeing it in their home countries, and usually no one ever does anything about it. Don't call the police, dont go to help, nothing. They are, after all, "just" girls.

I have seen the same thing many times in western countries... not so much "because they are girls" but fear, apathy or even compliance... I am a westerner and I have seen many instances of domestic violence... but I did not see any in China...

[gato]

See here for a comparison of domestic violence rates between 9 different jurisdictions, including Australia, Hong Kong, Mozambique, Philippines, and Switzerland.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7ZXUSP7CfuUC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=domestic+violence+rate+world+health+organization&source=bl&ots=eOEv4NqL4U&sig=Vb75OhO-OFhQUJeLPJH4HIX90KI&hl=en&ei=BfgcSqXLG4qVkAXMi92KDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA39,M1

You'll see that the HK and the Philippines were found to have the lowest rate of domestic violence, Australia, Costa Rica, Denmark and Mozambique the highest.

[renzhe]

Cite it.

Peekay has cited several studies, and linked to them. You, on the other hand, haven't cited anything. Where can we read the study?

[Music&MeForever]

It is an unfortunate and a very sensitive topic we're discussing here, but as some have pointed out it seems as much the issue in the progressive West as in the rest of the world. The disparity in domestic violence rates can be explained by the fact that female nature with its emotional softness creates perfect abuse victims, as has been pointed out:

although she feels sorry for "breaking his heart"

Sadly, in many such cases 'battered' women have gone through a long period of harassment before actually realizing that once it started it would never stop.

IMO the cause of violence against women in western countries may be psychological rather than cultural, lets blame it on the rising phenomenon of severe lack of selfconfidence and absence of mental hygiene in individual physically dominant males. The pressure is just too big. Then there's also widespread pornography which portrays women as commodities, which may also explain the high rates of violence in the West.

Two of my best friends are Japanese. None of them want to go back to live in Japan. They say there's a huge difference in the traditional perception of what is and what is not sexual harassment in the West and in patriarchal Japan, where women grow up indeed psychologically trained to be abuse-resistant by our standards. So minor cases of violence usually go unnoticed, hence the low rate.

Nowadays, seemingly liberated from the era of 'must-get-married' traditional stereotype, modern economically independent promiscuous career-girls indeed give the impression of strong women, but I think they have actually lost the sense of direction. Intercultural relationships seem to solve the problem: those dating foreign boyfriends fare the best.

I haven't personally heard of nor witnessed any abuse cases against women in China, at least not in the big cities. But I saw many Chinese women bossing their husbands around in public places in China and abroad. Looks equally bad, poor guys

Anyway, I think it's a huge progress from the foot-binding society period to hosts of working women, in the big cities in present day China. Law enforcement has become a major priority in China, which is ten times safer to live in than most other countries worldwide. China is changing rapidly, so let's wait and see how far they can go.

[gato]

I haven't personally heard of nor witnessed any abuse cases against women in China, at least not in the big cities. But I saw many Chinese women bossing their husbands around in public places in China and abroad. Looks equally bad, poor guy

You might have heard of the stereotype of Shanghainese husband and wife. The husband does all the cooking and cleaning. The wife manages the husband's salary and gives him an allowance.

[bhchao]

You might have heard of the stereotype of Shanghainese husband and wife. The husband does all the cooking and cleaning. The wife manages the husband's salary and gives him an allowance.

You are considered a man in China if you can handle a Shanghainese woman.

[crazy-meiguoren]

You might have heard of the stereotype of Shanghainese husband and wife. The husband does all the cooking and cleaning. The wife manages the husband's salary and gives him an allowance.

That's what I went through. I had no idea that my ex-wife was from Shanghai. Her blue eyes and Scottish surname had me fooled...