Why is her Mandarin Rubbish?

[zozzen]

Again: actual listening is a better judge than wrong-pinyin for judging communication, you know it and anyone with an IQ above 50 knows it. Why you're clutching to this ridiculous position that makes you look so foolish is beyond me.

Wait, you know pinyin?

you need more time reading it than hearing it, but it doesn't actually change the difficulty of comprehending it. What you need is read the pinyin text loud and you get what you want.

But you have a new excuse for failing to read the pinyin text that shows you typical hongkongese style:

First, it's error laden. You can only listen to it, but not reading pinyin, great!

Second, it's because you're the one with IQ over 50 so you know pinyin raises up the difficulty of comprehending the content.

Maybe third? It's dishonest, bankrupt, foolish, IQ below 50, without plurals etc.

My English is very goodest, but "anyone with an IQ above 50 knows" it's harder to understand spelling.rather than listening to it.

[zozzen]

Gok wai maan on, dzoi gin! (hongkongesewa )

Nei sik hongkong wa , gum hao nan tong nei wang hong kong pinyin ga wor.

Anyway, it's quite addictive and after feeding my dogs breakfast, i couldn't stand leaving it. But i gotta now. The webmaster with an obsessive concern for neatness in forums would feel mad at these posts.

[Hofmann]

I think I'd like to hear zozzen's Cantonese. 巧 sounds like haau2 or kiu2.

Or maybe you should use a more popular romanization system when you write romanized Cantonese.

[wrbt]

Wait, you know pinyin?

you need more time reading it than hearing it, but it doesn't actually change the difficulty of comprehending it. What you need is read the pinyin text loud and you get what you want.

Yes, I know pinyin but I use it for what it's intended: vocabulary lists for pronunciation. I'm not naive enough to believe it has utility for judging listening comprehension.

But you have a new excuse for failing to read the pinyin text that shows you typical hongkongese style:

Another intellectually dishonest statement by you, as usual. I've not attempted to read your purposely incorrect pinyin and I told you that, but in your now typical fashion you're now claiming I have and failed. I put no credence in the wrong pinyin, so I haven't bothered with it. You know this, yet you are what you are.

My English is very goodest, but "anyone with an IQ above 50 knows" it's harder to understand spelling.rather than listening to it.

No, it's pointless to understand spelling as a gauge of listening comprehension, especially when a video is right there.

Bottom line is this:

HashiriKata - If I happen to stop this speaker in the middle of Hongkong to ask the way, I'd probably think her Mandarin is very good.

wushijiao - Yes, she has a thick Cantonese accent, but, can any native speaker not understand her? I find that you can basically understand her.

skylee - It's ok. Standard. Oh but I am just a native speaker, no expert.

Music&MeForever - I agree completely with HashiriKata. Her Mandarin is fine. She's got a bit of an accent but I can perfectly well understand what she's saying.

Lu - I think, she speaks it alright, her pronounciation is bad but still intelligible, she won't have any trouble making herself understood in China.

DrZero - She's a fluent speaker, she just has an accent. An accent isn't "bad" or "rubbish" per se.

leeyah - I've no problem with the way she talks. But perhaps it's just me

xiaocai - Talking about her accent, I have no problem with it as well. And as long as it is understandable, personally I will not say that her Mandarin is rubbish.

calibre2001 - I understand what she's saying

That sinks you. Sinks your claim she can't communicate, sinks your toy pinyin.

Obviously she can communicate if all these people can understand her.

Case closed.

[zozzen]

That's why, again, i think you make a wild imagination on Hong Kongese putonghua without real life experience in your bedroom. Unlike most others, you're not just trying to say merely you understand it, but you imagine shop keepers, landlord, taxi drivers, neighbours in Beijing could also understand this.

do you think you could drop this woman off in Beijing and she could handle day-to-day communication tasks like catching a taxi to where she wants, renting an apartment, buying groceries, discussing lovely white dresses, etc. with the locals?

I wouldn't use your word to say you're foolish, dishonest, but you're ignorant of Hong Kongese putonghua and try to pretend that you know it. It makes you "intellectually" naked.

As I said earlier in this thread, Cantonese is just a dialect of Chinese and average Chinese should be able to grab some phrases and words from Hongkongese putonghua, but the ability to communicate with it depends on the topics and the backgrounds of listeners.

Seems you don't get it. Let me be clearer:

- A minor mistake on Zi/Zhi, qi/chi/c/j, y/r can cause lots of communication troubles in real life environment.

- Cantonized putonghua pronunciation can make it worse.

That's what I showed you throughout the so-called error-laden pinyin that you fled away from understanding it.

Let me be specific on your imaginative scenario, based on non-imaginative experience:

Getting a taxi ---- it's not difficult anywhere.

Discussing dresses --- it depends again. "Wo tiao kunzi you ge xinying fafan tao ang" (我條裙子有個心形花辦圖案), a simple expression, can get you to nowhere.

Renting an apartment ---- as long as you don't bother to talk about legal terms in the contract.

Buying groceries --- depends on what you're going to buy. People without exposure to Cantonese would have problems with pronunications like yewu (藥物), jijing(紙巾), chiji (廁紙) , meibolao (微波爐).

And more:

Discussing history, politics and science --- Considering the way CNN pronunce Hu jintao, people should be able to grab some phrases especially the name of important officals. Going farther? better not.

Anyway, I think you better let us know how good you understand HongKongese putonghua before we put the discussion forth. Again, I'm not interested to argue with you about something you're ignorant but pretend to know.

[wrbt]

That's why, again, i think you make a wild imagination on Hong Kongese putonghua without real life experience in your bedroom. Unlike most others, you're not just trying to say merely you understand it, but you imagine shop keepers, landlord, taxi drivers, neighbours in Beijing could also understand this.

It takes no wild imagination to see a video of a woman speaking, understand her, and declare she can obviously communicate. None at all.

I wouldn't use your word to say you're foolish, dishonest, but you're ignorant of Hong Kongese putonghua and try to pretend that you know it. It makes you "intellectually" naked.

Never pretended anything, saw video and understood her. You're greatly exaggerating my position on any level of expertise, but we're used to this at this point from, oh king of strawmen.

As I said earlier in this thread, blah blah blah blah blah blah

Don't waste your time here, as any opinion you have on linguistics is dismissed, given your belief that mangled pinyin is a good judge of listening comprehension.

Anyway, I think you better let us know how good you understand HongKongese putonghua before we put the discussion forth. Again, I'm not interested to argue with you about something you're ignorant but pretend to know.

1. I stated already, I can understand most of what the woman in the video says. You believe playing pinyin puzzles proves otherwise, but hey that's your thing it doesn't matter to me.

2. I think you are interested to argue, that's why you keep posting in this thread and attacking things I've never even said.

3. I don't pretend to know anything, just stated that the woman can communicate since I can understand her. Apparently about a dozen others could understand her as well, but I know you're conveniently ignoring that.

[zozzen]

It takes no wild imagination to see a video of a woman speaking, understand her, and declare she can obviously communicate. None at all.

I don't pretend to know anything, just stated that the woman can communicate since I can understand her. Apparently about a dozen others could understand her as well, but I know you're conveniently ignoring that.

Just tell me: how can you come to a conclusion that putonghua like this can " catch a taxi to where she wants, rent an apartment, buy groceries, discuss lovely white dresses, etc. with the locals" in Beijing?

Instead of quoting opinions from this forum and pretending to have beijingese ears, I take your statement into detailed examples and show the problems with it. How could you expect northern Chinese could understand typical hongkong putonghua like yewu(藥物), meibolao(微波爐), peiji(被子), chiji (廁紙), xinying (心型), kunji (裙子)?

It's fine that you can understand what she said in the video, but don't make your bedroom conclusion.further on a situation you've never experienced.

[wrbt]

Just tell me: how can you come to a conclusion that putonghua like this can " catch a taxi to where she wants, rent an apartment, buy groceries, discuss lovely white dresses, etc. with the locals" in Beijing?

I've explained this to you over and over: because I could understand her Mandarin, so I concluded that native speakers that had far more experience than I surely could.

Apparently so many others in the forum believe she can communicate just find, so that along with your asinine beliefs about purposely mangled pinyin being a valid tool for gauging listening comprehension cause me to completely dismiss your opinion as valid or worthy of consideration.

Instead of quoting opinions from this forum

No, I'll take their counsel over any you give, thanks. Please go back to creating little pinyin puzzles, you seem very good at that.

It's fine that you can understand what she said in the video, but don't make your bedroom conclusion.further on a situation you've never experienced.

I think my being able to understand her, along with plenty of others in here saying they can understand her, is a pretty reasonable indicator. Much better than one outlying opinion from someone who's obviously demonstrated unsound logic and distorted arguments.

[zozzen]

I've explained this to you over and over: because I could understand her Mandarin, so I concluded that native speakers that had far more experience than I surely could.

"surely could".... Wonderful phrase.

some members here can understand her mandarin, so by a great leap of logic, you think people 100000 miles away from the server of this forum can also understand it. To make it further, you conclude that putonghua like this can help you buy groceries, catch a taxi, discuss fashion with your neighbor and blah blah blah.

You seem to tell me again and again what you said is wild imagination based on something you just don't know. Btw, do you know it? .

[wrbt]

I'll take their opinion of your opinion anytime, as you've demonstrated your abilities at drawing conclusions and they're quite lacking.

How about this: why don't you start a poll in the forum, with a link to the video, asking if people think she could communicate in Beijing?

Wonderful phrase

Yeah you're the one to attempt to nitpick on English.

[roddy]

Sorry, but you two are going round in circles now, and are discussing each other more than the actual issue - could you both please leave it unless someone else turns up with something new to say. You're welcome to continue via private message and let us know what conclusions you reach.

[wrbt]

I agree, we're just recycling at this point... he's not going to convince me pinyin is useful for testing listening comprehension and I'm not going to convince him that all these posters who say she can communicate are correct.

Apologies to the forum (and the admins) for this ridiculous pissing match, I look forward to future more fruitful interactions with everyone here and wish everyone continued good times with your Chinese language pursuits.

[bunny87]

wow, not sure how i stumbled here, and though I'm late I must add:

Linguistics is awesome. It teaches that there is more to language than the romanization + tone combination. Factors such as overall tone, speed, facial expression, body language, etc. contribute more to comprehension than the words themselves quite often. Things such as sarcasm written pinyin can't pick up on. That said, pinyin alone can not be the measurement tool for the girls ability to communicate.

Linguistics also teaches that the official definition between a language and a dialect is one has a school and an army. Otherwise, if the two languages are mutually unintelligible, that's enough said.

I love my linguistics

please don't misunderstand it, nor mis-use it.

Native speaker are experts within themselves. To this day, there are things that natives know and can pick up on that we linguists still don't know. Tools such as pinyin were concepts trying to capture the knowledge a native speaker implicitly knows that someone else tried to make explicit to help second language learners. However, a single tool yet doesn't exist that captures everything a native knows. Comments such as "soft" "hard" "harsh" are examples of things that a trained or native ear can pick up on, however pinyin doesn't reflect that.

if this discussion should continue academically, then I hope this is some food for thought.

if this discussion should continue opinionated, then have at it!

<3 linguistics

[Ed Log]

Her mandarin is poor because she is speaking a foreign language. There may be many reasons why she didn't study mandarin at school.

[Shi Tong]

The question here is "why is her Mandarin Rubbish?", but the question is; to whom? and in what way?

1) Her pronunciation is pretty average, there are a lot of places where she could improve- her tones and some of the actual sounds she makes are out.

2) Her vocabulary is really quite large, so she has a lot of knowledge in Mandarin.

3) She can be understood- she could easily make herself understood if there are any questions against her vocabulary.

Everyone and anyone can have an accent, and a lot of people cannot shake this "problem". What I say is good on her- she can obviously speak and communicate well. It doesn't take away from the fact that her Mandarin sounds clunky, but it certainly doesn't mean it's bad.

[DrZero]

The human ear -- brain, actually -- is very quick to adjust to non-standard pronunciations, even highly aberrant ones. I don't think it would take long for a native speaker to figure out the girl means beizi even if she says it as "peiji."

My baby says lion, shizi, as shiji. She has only heard it as shizi from her Chinese relatives. She just can't say the zi, so she substitutes a sound that seems similar to her. This seems to be a neurological process, not a conscious process of "hm, I'm having trouble with this sound, what could I say that is close to it?"

I am in no way a native Mandarin speaker, and in fact my level is not all that high. But I can easily understand my child. In other words, my brain has no trouble reverse-engineering this sound shift and figuring out that it means shizi, lion.

My point is that pinyin represents a standard of pronunciation, but the human brain is capable of adjusting for vast variations in how the words are actually pronounced, and generally without all that much effort. I'd say the girl could get around in Beijing about as well as a Jamaican could get around in Minneapolis. People might ask her to repeat herself sometimes, but generally her "rubbish" Mandarin would not present a problem.

[Shi Tong]

Dr Zero, I agree- and I would especially like to say that accent has nothing to do with IQ.

Second languages are almost always spoken with at least some accent. The perpose of language is communication, and if that can be achieved, then that's the end of the question.

You could say that simplified Chinese is rediculously ugly and often makes no sense, therefore it's rubbish, but since it's used to communicate between people and this words as a method of communication, it makes it valid.

[creamyhorror]

Old thread, but I felt the need to reply.

I found her Mandarin a bit hard to understand, because I'm not used to the Cantonese pronunciations. Didn't understand maybe a word or two each sentence among the earlier ones, though the later ones were easier to make out.

Without the video for context, I would have no idea what a few words meant, e.g. the butchered pronunciation of what was probably "设计师". I still don't know what "wanshan(g)" was - 晚装? I think if folks here listened to the audio without looking at the video, they would've had a harder time. I also think some people here may be better at understanding her speech because they've been exposed to a number of accents (especially HK ones) before. This is almost certainly not the case for some local and provincial people who've not had exposure to Cantonese/HK accents. I can imagine her having problems communicating in parts of China (offering no proof in this regard, admittedly).

I think zozzen had a point and don't get why people didn't agree with him. His fake-pinyin was clearly meant to reproduce Cantonese pronunciations ("je", "giu", etc.), even if they were a bit nonstandard. And he did point out words whose mispronunciations would make them very hard to understand out of context (e.g. "ye wu", "peiji", "meibolao"）.

Well, had to say that. She certainly has better Mandarin than most of the HK people I spoke to in my trip there last week, and is overall quite understandable (with the video context added in).

[rezaf]

She sounds like my Vietnamese classmates after learning Mandarin for a year. Some people are smart and some are pretty.(Anyway I don't think she is either)

[skylee]

Some people are smart and some are pretty.(Anyway I don't think she is either)

Language is just one skill. Perhaps she is not great at languages (or perhaps just Mandarin), it doesn't mean that she is not smart.