該 confusion

[skylee]

I have this observation about the usage of the word 該 in mainland China. I have (in the Shanghai Museum and the Shandong Province Museum, both are great places btw) read some explanation next to an exhibit and in the explanation the word 該 is used to refer to the object right next to it. For example, an explanation on a fossil put right next to the fossil refers to the fossil as 該化石. It just doesn't sound right to me. I think it should be 這化石. IIRC the same happens to the Chinese caption of the cenotaph of the A-Bomb memorial park in Hiroshima (I went there last month).

I wonder if what I understand to be the right usage (該 ~ that) is actually wrong, or has now become wrong, or people in different places just use it very differently. Dictionaries say that one of the usage of 該 is to refer to something that has been mentioned before, and I know that. I am pretty sure that the 該 that puzzle me are not used in this sense. But even if it is used in this sense, when the object is right next to the caption, shouldn't it still be 這? For example, say “1986年考古學家在A地發掘出這化石，內有500隻三葉蟲化石。同時保存這麼大量而且狀態完好的三葉蟲的化石非常罕有，故該化石極為珍貴。” Wouldn't you think that 該 is odd here?

Too bad I don't have records of what I saw.

Views?

[jiangping]

It looks like it just means "this" here. I guess it's kinda like a more formal version of 這 when talking about important things. I'm not sure what it's referring to has to have been mentioned before, just as long as it's obvious from context what it's talking about.

[chrix]

I think it's the one "referring to what has been mentioned before", aka "said" in English "the said/present exhibit" etc. But it's mentioned before in a metalinguistic sense, i.e. by the presence of the exhibit next to the sign.

I'm not a native speaker, but this usage doesn't strike me as unusual at all. In Japanese, 当 is used in a similar way.

[imron]

My 现代汉语规范词典 says that for this kind of usage 该 is equivalent to “此” or “这个”。

Is it just the fact that 该 is used on a plaque next to the object that makes it seems strange? If so it wouldn't surprise me if the person writing the text was not the person putting the plaque next to the object, and so didn't consider it strange when they were writing it.

[skylee]

Is it just the fact that 该 is used on a plaque next to the object that makes it seems strange?

It is, well mostly.

[chrix]

I find it really hard to put it into words, but I don't think they're exactly the same thing. I've always understood 該 in the sense of "the entity this text is about" rather than just a formal version of "this". A bit like English "said", but the usage seems to differ a bit between E and C.

Edit: missed a word up there. Also while I'm at it. Yes, I agree it's also a difference in register, but as far as formal demonstratives go, there would be other choices such as 此, 茲 and so forth..

Edited June 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM by chrix

[jiangping]

I find it really to put it into words, but I don't think they're exactly the same thing. I've always understood 該 in the sense of "the entity this text is about" rather than just a formal version of "this". A bit like English "said", but the usage seems to differ a bit between E and C.

Yeah, that's true. Although I think it's more of a difference in register rather than meaning. Perhaps when translating to English it should be "the above-mentioned..." or "the X in question" or "said...".

[skylee]

really what?

[chrix]

I fixed the missing word above...

[imron]

for this kind of usage 该 is equivalent to “此” or “这个”

@chrix, just to clarify, when I said "this kind of usage", I was refering to when 该 is refering to a previously mentioned person/object. The exact definition in my dictionary is: 指示上面说过的人或事物，相当于“此”“这个”等。

[HashiriKata]

When all else fails, would it be possible to see 该 as a kind of "the" in Chinese? In the definition that imron cited, the 等 in 相当于“此”“这个”等 seems to hint at the possibility that 该 can be interpreted more liberally than just "此" and "这".

[skylee]

I understand those captions perfectly with those strange (to me) 該. I just feel that they sound wrong. They may sound perfectly correct to other people.

At work, I've had some troubles involving the liberal use of a certain term. 20 years ago a term had a very narrow meaning, whereas now people interpret / use it in such a way that it means things that are not the same. And then I got into trouble. Nothing too bad, but still.

[anonymoose]

I could imagine seeing poor English at the Shanghai Museum, but I doubt they'd have got the Chinese wrong.

[Music&MeForever]

I doubt they'd have got the Chinese wrong.

Right

此 and 这个 are both corect , and I second "the" (in the meaning of the/this very same/the one mentioned) in post #11

Could it also have any relevance to the usage of 本 as in: 本人， 本公司？

However it seems strange to me a native speaker finds it so hard to grasp

[skylee]

However it seems strange to me a native speaker finds it so hard to grasp

This is interesting.

[zhwj]

It's quite possible that the explanations were written up in a different context (say, a history book) and then mounted next to the objects without regard for whether they were appropriate for the situation.

On the other hand, maybe it's something specific to artifact exhibitions: link

[Music&MeForever]

This is interesting

Right So, intrigued by the depth and complexity of this post I started looking and found this：

“本“指自己方面的。。。“该“是旧时公文用语，指上文说过的人或事物。现代的公文里已很少用，一般的文章里更不合适。The dicitonary provides examples from an document dated in the 80s as an illustration with 这个人/那个人，此人，这位/那位 as synonyms for 该人。

So you're right, it's not as common (as 本) nowdays。