early Americanism vs present Chinaism

[zozzen]

It's a constant theme in the mainland China to compare themselves with America, in political sense like "come on, didn't America suppress her student movements brutally and let them go whatever they want? ", or in economic sense, "you know what, the poverty rate in the States is the highest among the industrialized world." But what makes interesting is about its manners and morals. America had once faced astonishingly similar comments that mainland Chinese has faced today.

Bill Bryson wrote an interesting book about how people in the Old World disliked everything in American. "All manners and morals were detestable", the author quoted, "Americans suffered from a unversial deficiency in good manners and graceful demeanour'.

The indelicacy of American dining habits was a common topic. In a dinner, an arrogant British was annoyed when a fellow diner asked him to pass a jug of milk. "PASS? HELL! I'm not paid for that business. You should use civility at table and by God I'll show you how!". At the time a popular etiquette book even had to teach American 'the knife should never be put in the mouth at all"because early American, long time ago, hadn't become acquainted with a fork.

What's more interesting is about expectorating. Spitting is so awfully widespread and heavily criticized in every village and street in China, while American of European origin at centuries ago developed a habit of chewing tobacco and disposing of the excess juice by spitting and invited a lot of criticism from their counterparts in Europe.

It's a pity the book didn't further illustrate the response from America at the time, while they were generally regarded as uncivilized people. I take these up on here, not because I want to show that Americans were so 'uncivilized' , but I'm so curious how they responded to them. Did it lay a negative sentiment towards European? Did it help develop Nationalism there? Or did they simply change the so-called bad and uncivilized manners?

Today Chinese received a lot of these similar comments. The response, more or less, is a new wave of Nationalism. It 'proved' that the developed World (including Hong Kong, Taiwan) is so arrogant, and look down on all Chinese over the world (possibly excluding Hong Kong, Taiwan by its context), so we have to bring unity together and fight for our interests. In some cases, I can hear a furious comment from Chinese about Chinese manners, but don't take it for granted that the commenter is of no nationalist and tried to nod your head to agree. I learned that this can be a unpopular move from my trips to mainland China.

[Outofin]

I think most criticisms regarding manners are from within, rather than the outside. Most foreigners are kind and polite enough to remind people's manners without hurting their feeling. The British yelling at American you mentioned was very awful and I never heard of such incidents. I think most people, the Chinese and foreigners alike, understand that manner is an issue but will improve as the society progress. What matters is how you say it. Overall, it's really a very minor issue. Nationalism doesn't stem from there.

Moral could be more serious. The criticisms are only from the outside, so they're a sort of conflict. It's quite universal to hear from Westerns that death penalty is immoral; software and movie piracy is bad; and so on. It's not uncommon that eating strange food is unacceptable; atheism is a sign of corruption; many misunderstanding of Chinese culture; etc. We can easily find a large number of issues to debate. Basically, they don't like how we do things, and if it's something we are not going to change, we are not happy with these criticisms.

[ange9s]

How did America respond to this? We kicked the British army the hell out of our country, of course!*

*Just kidding, British folks:wink:

[Senzhi]

atheism is a sign of corruption

Never heard that one, nor ever thought of it. I'd love to see some resources on that, purely out of interest (= personal education).

[Outofin]

Often heard from preachers and the newly converted.

But it’s not really about a few extreme words but about public opinions in general. On individual level, of course, everyone is free to choose and no one else says a word of it. I think we can use politicians as a test because they’re all very sensitive to public opinions.

Politician may well say “I’m an African/Mexican/Asian American and I’m proud of that.” They say it because racism is really a dead dog. Sometimes it’s even popular to say that.

Much fewer politicians proactively say “I’m gay and I’m proud of that.” Because it’s controversial and less acceptable among the public.

What politicians say “I’m an atheist”?

[Senzhi]

What politicians say “I’m an atheist”?

None (that I know of).

What politicians say: "I'm an honest man." ?

[porse]

Most politicians where I come from (Sweden) would probably say they're atheist if asked. And honestly, I find it hard to believe that those seemingly intelligent people that dominate US politics are actually all religious. I guess that's what you meant, it wouldn't play well with the perhaps not so bright American electorate if they said they were atheists, but surely a lot of them are. But in many western countries atheism or agnosticism is the norm, and in a country like Sweden religion is looked upon rather suspiciously. Sure it's no political suicide to say you're religious, but I rather not vote for someone who did.

About the Chinese manners thing. From my experience, what pisses off young nationalists the most is political criticism and a perception of westerners as subjective and hypocritical in that criticism. I don't know that complaints about manners is a big issue that fuels nationalist sentiment.

[aimei]

What's wrong with asking someone to pass a jug of milk?? Maybe I'm a heathen American, but I honestly don't get what is impolite about that.....

Someone mentioned the prevalence of religion in American politics....for the most part you are right. In order to be elected here, a politician has to be religious, or at least believe in God. I worked for Obama in the Midwest (generally a pretty conservative place), and I always had to reassure voters that yes, he is a Christian, not a Muslim, or no, he is not an Atheist like his father was. I had to do this several times a day, pretty annoying (or sad, if you want to look at it that way). I guess in the U.S., if you don't believe in God, a lot of people don't consider you a moral person, or think that there is something really lacking in you as an individual. I was raised a Lutheran until I was about 16, but I never really believed any of it, and would consider myself an Agnostic now. Only my family and closest friends know that though, since it is pretty taboo to say that you aren't a Christian, and even more so to say you are an Atheist. In my home state, which is extremely conservative, you cannot say you are an Atheist, otherwise you will get attacked pretty badly, or ostracized, which is almost worse I think. I find it amazing that politicians in Europe can admit to being Atheists, that is pretty cool! Hopefully we can reach that point in this country, where it is not a taboo.

[zozzen]

According to the book, it probably happened a century before the movie was invented. At that time, perhaps some Brits assumed it's a kinda of manners not to pass anything over the table from a diner to another? I'm not sure.

[HashiriKata]

At that time, perhaps some Brits assumed it's a kinda of manners not to pass anything over the table from a diner to another? I'm not sure.

I don't think so. As a (pseudo ) Briton, I'm pretty sure the criticism is about the lack of polite prefixes such as "please" accompanying the requests:

"PASS? HELL! I'm not paid for that business. You should use civility at table and by God I'll show you how!"

[zozzen]

About the Chinese manners thing. From my experience, what pisses off young nationalists the most is political criticism and a perception of westerners as subjective and hypocritical in that criticism. I don't know that complaints about manners is a big issue that fuels nationalist sentiment.

it isn't that hard to expect it. From my experience, "angry nationalists" in China, heavily lack of self-confidence, are sensitive to these criticisms because from their aspect it's no difference than suggesting that they were less well-educated, less well brought up and less knowledge about 'manners'. It must be an arrogant 'outsider' who looks down on us and attempts to put 'western value' onto Chinese.

However, I took these up here not for discussing manners, but it's about the image of present day China and past America. The book I read didn't explain what Americans reacted to the vulgar image of early America they eft to their European cousins. Was there any resentment?

[Music&MeForever]

It must be an arrogant 'outsider' who looks down on us and attempts to put 'western value' onto Chinese.

Actually it's the privileged "upper" class mainlanders who after travelling abroad start to perceive Chinese manners as uncivilized and go on about how this or that should be done in Western etiquette, finding fault in all around them, forever nagging and criticizing their own

[Simon_CH]

Americans are civilized now ? Blimey, I haven't noticed that.

[zozzen]

Actually it's the privileged "upper" class mainlanders who after travelling abroad start to perceive Chinese manners as uncivilized and go on about how this or that should be done in Western etiquette, finding fault in all around them, forever nagging and criticizing their own

And these 'outsiders' dare say Chinese should flush toilet and not spit on the streets. It must be a western influence and It's an outrage!

[Guittar]

Civilized you say. I think I resemble that remark. No...wait... my wife is signaling NOT.

1. having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.

2. polite; well-bred; refined.

3. of or pertaining to civilized people:

Early American culture was a very rural society of several immigrant groups. Many cultural misunderstandings caused friction between various ethnic groups. However all of the groups shared the similarities of family, nurturing and family respect. As the industrial revolution took hold and the cities dramatically expanded, many of these cultural groups came to live with each other. Economic, social and political turmoil reflected the increasing change in society due to technology.

Present Chinese culture was a very rural society of several indiginous groups. Many cultural misunderstandings caused friction between various ethnic groups. However all of the groups shared the similarities of family, nurturing and family respect. As the industrial revolution took hold and the cities dramatically expanded, many of these cultural groups came to live with each other. Economic, social and political turmoil reflected the increasing change in society due to technology.

I still cannot civilize my 16 year old son and my 15 year old daughter is too civilized.