six silver cups with strange inscriptions

[itchy]

hi again forum!!!! here is the last item in my collection

that has puzzled me with translating.

a set of six silver cups each with a four character mark on the outside

and a different inscription in the bottom of each.

any help with there history?

thanks again folks!

[williams]

wa!Where did you get this?~!

I'll translate for you and tell you about it's history.

宫僚雅集：The minister's courtlike party.

宫：palace,court.

僚：officer.the man work for goverment

宫僚：officer in the court.I think the officer who work in the court should be important officer.so I translate 宫僚 into minister.(I don't know if it's exactly.)

雅：politely,courtlike.

集：party.

康熙朝士有宫僚雅集杯.

There's "宫僚雅集" cup in Kangxi(康熙)(Qi goverment清朝)'s ministers.

盖其时十人各制酒器十事，互相招邀。

There's ten minister made cup(for drink,drink wine) each in that time,and there's ten cups in all.They invited each other.

杯以白金为之，分别大小，如踏式杯，

The cups made of white gold(I don't if "white gold" is silver or platina) with different size.like "踏式杯".(how can I translate "踏式"?踏:step on,式:model,踏式：the model like one step on another.It means these cup can pile up together.)

白质黑章，

texture is white and character is black(I think I can translate like this)

外界乌丝花草，

flowers and grass is made up of black lines in the outside,

内刻诸人姓字里居，

everyone's names,字(the special name used by old Chinese.) and hometown carved in it.

旁刻“宫僚雅集”四字，

"宫僚雅集"for character carved in the side.

以量之大小为次。

take size for it's order.

首汤斌，字潜庵，河南睢州人；

First is Bing Tang,字 is Qianan,from Suizhou Henan;

次沈荃，字绎堂，江南华亭人；

Next is Quan Shen,字 is Yitang,from Huating Jiangnan;

次郭，字快圃，直隶清苑人；

Next is ?? Guo字 is Kuaipu,From Qingyuan Zhili;

次王泽宏，字昊庐，湖北黄冈人；

Next is Zhehong Wang,字 is Haolu,from Huanggang,Hubei;

次耿介，字逸庵，河南登封人；

Next is Jie Geng,字 is Yian,from Dengfeng Henan;

次田喜｛I don't know that character,It's a old Chinese character｝，字子湄，山西代州人；

Next is Xi?? Tian,字 is Zi mei,from Daizhou Shanxi;

次张英，字敦复，安徽桐城人；

Next is Ying Zhang,字 is Dunfu,from Tongcheng Anhui;

次李录予，字山公，顺天大兴人；

Next is Luyu Li,字 is Shangong,from Daxing Shuntian;

次朱阜，字即山，浙江山阴人；

Next is Fu Zhu,字 is jishan,from Shanying Zhejiang;

次王士祯，字阮亭，山东新城人。

Next is Shizhen Wang,字 is Ruanting,from Xincheng Shandong;

Yeah,it's over,Because information is Old Chinese,I don't know whether the translation is exactly.

If anythin you confused,

Post Reply.

[Lu]

Williams is right (as far as I can tell :-) ) but his translation is a bit off. Especially, imo you can't go and change the names of Qing dynasty officials. 王泽宏 is Wang Zhehong, not Zhehong Wang.

首汤斌，字潜庵，河南睢州人；

First is Tang Bin, courtesy name Qian'an, from Suizhou in Henan [province];

次沈荃，字绎堂，江南华亭人；

Next is Shen Quan,courtesy name Yitang, from Huating in Jiangnan;

次郭，字快圃，直隶清苑人；

Next is Guo ??, courtesy name Kuaipu, from Qingyuan in Zhili;

次王泽宏，字昊庐，湖北黄冈人；

Next is Wang Zhehong, courtesy name Haolu, from Huanggang in Hubei;

次耿介，字逸庵，河南登封人；

Next is Geng Jie, courtesy name Yi'an, from Dengfeng in Henan;

次田喜，字子湄，山西代州人；

Next is Tian Xi??, courtesy name Zimei, from Daizhou in Shanxi;

次张英，字敦复，安徽桐城人；

Next is Zhang Ying, courtesy name Dunfu, from Tongcheng in Anhui;

次李录予，字山公，顺天大兴人；

Next is Li Luyu, courtesy name is Shangong, from Daxing in Shuntian;

次朱阜，字即山，浙江山阴人；

Next is Zhu Fu, courtesy name Jishan, from Shanying in Zhejiang;

次王士祯，字阮亭，山东新城人。

Next is Wang Shizhen, courtesy name is Ruanting, from Xincheng Shandong;

[williams]

isn't the family name in the last?~!

[trien27]

Williams & Lu:

I don't know where you saw the character 字 at?

I didn't see 字 a style name or courtesy name, but did see號 (号). 字 is a style name or courtesy name, that was given to you when you were coming of age, and your peers will use this name to address you from this time on.

號 (号) was sort of an alternative courtesy name to the zi or nickname given to you by others?

號 is either on the lower right hand corner, as the last character or the first character of the second or middle column, written in 行書 / 行书, Xingshu, or running script?

For more information, visit

Chinese courtesy name....

Nowadays, some people have self-made 字 and some have self-made 號 (号) or they don't have either but just the "姓名", which is short for 姓氏 [last name; surname; family name, etc...] and 名字[Given name]. There no such concept as "Middle name" or "Second name" in Chinese.

I don't think anybody born after 1949 has either one [字 or 號 (号)] ?

Edited June 13, 2009 at 07:57 PM by trien27
additional information

[imron]

isn't the family name in the last?

No. Although previously in English many people would write a Chinese name in "givenname surname" order to match English-language name order, it's both confusing and unnecessary, and now it is generally held that Chinese names should be written in the normal Chinese order - surname givenname.

[renzhe]

I wonder if this will spread to Korean and Japanese names too.

[itchy]

I must thank everyone so so much about these cups, i did not think they would be so interesting.

can anyone give me more information on them and there importance -

am i right to understand they are kangxi period and from a set of 10

specifically made for these 10 court ministers??

does anyone have any info on them and their careers?

a seach using google comes up with this on a wikipedia:

宮僚雅集杯姓名

《浪跡叢談》記康熙朝士有宮僚雅集杯，蓋其時十人，各制酒器十事，互相招邀。杯以白金為之，分別大小，如沓杯式，白質黑章，外界烏絲花草，內鐫諸公姓字裏居，旁鐫『宮僚雅集』四字，以量之大小為次。首湯斌，字潛庵，河南睢州人；次沈荃，字繹堂，江南華亭人；次郭棻，字快圃，直隸清苑人；次王澤宏，字昊廬，湖北黃岡人；次耿介，字逸庵，河南登封人；次田喜{}，字子湄，山西代州人；次張英，字敦復，安徽桐城人；次李錄予，字山公，順天大興人；次朱阜，字即山，浙江山陰人；次王士禎，字阮亭，山東新城人。皆一時同官坊局講讀者，承平雅宴，耆俊遺風，百世下猶足鼓人清興也。梁氏書中記是杯淵源綦詳，飾潤存之，為後來吉金錄中增一故事（又按：錢唐汪遠孫詩集，有《宮僚雅集酒器歌》，敘雲：孫雨人表丈出以宴客，雨人頤谷予，是此杯後入仁和孫氏矣。汪詩又雲：前杭後梁兩勍敵，以一合十傾醍醐。自註：堇浦、諫庵兩先生，皆善飲，能盡一套）。

but what context are the cups in chinese history??

thank you!!

[williams]

They're not famous in great Chinese history.

"宫僚雅集" is a flash point in their history.

I can't search too many history about them.

this is my job about they history.

I just do what I can,so sorry.

首湯斌，字潛庵，河南睢州人；

主要政绩在康熙朝，

His main political achievement is in Kangxi period,

官至内阁学士、江宁巡抚、礼部尚书等。

Has been hold his office as 内阁学士,(the emperor's consultant) 江宁巡抚,(Patrol Officer of Jiangning(near Nanjing))礼部尚书(the Main Officer of Li Minister(for comity,sacrifice,banquet,education))

汤斌为官一生，

When he's in office among his life,

除著书立说，发展理学学说外，

expcet for writing books,develop his 理学,(a philosophy of old Chinese)

几乎所有精力都集中在河务和漕运的治理上，

all of his energy is use for channel regulation and channel transportation.

并注意为百姓减轻负担、

and noticed for people's burden's abatement

赈灾救施、

relieve the people in disaster

兴利除害，

increase good things,reduce bad things,

从而始终躬身实践儒家的

for practice the confucius's theory

"修身，齐家，治国，平天下"的"民本"思想，

"study myself,work for knights,help the lord,advise the king" by himself.

为变"满目榛荒，人丁稀少"为"盛世滋生人丁，永不加赋"做出了一定贡献。

make a contribution for:get nobody live in poor land to lots of people live in rich land,and never rise tax.

其为官清廉，

He is very rectitude in office.

至死仅遗俸银八两，

when he is dead.His inheritance is just only 8 liang(about 1600 元)

连买棺材的钱都不够，

envn can't buy his coffin,

真正可谓是一代清官。

He is a sure cleanhanded minister.

次沈荃，字繹堂，江南華亭人；

康熙年间最重要的书家之一。

the most imoprtant calligrapher in Kangxi Perior.

据记载，

by the recordation,

在康熙皇帝向他学习书法时，

When emperor Kangxi study calligrapher from him

他每每能够“下笔即指其弊，兼析其由”。

He always can:"point his fault when he writing and analyse it"

好学的皇帝，

the hardworking emperor

则十分感慨，并赏赐良多。

sigh with emotion,and largess a lot.

康熙曾对李光地说：

Kangxi has been said to Liguangdi:(another minister)

“ 朕初学书，

"when I study calligrapher first,

宗敬（沈宗敬）之父荃实侍，

Shenzhongjing(minister)'s father attend by my side,

屡指陈得失，

always point my fault and merit

至今每作书，

when I want to make a calligrapher.

未尝不思荃之勤也。”

I never don't think about the hardworking of Shenquan.

而且，

and

“凡御制碑版，

every board or monument by goverment

及殿廷屏障，

and court's folding screen

御座箴铭，

throne's motto

辄命公书之。

are all submit him.

或自作大书，

or write by himself(Kangxi)

命题其后”。

ask him sign it.

于是朝野间盛行董书，成为一时风尚。

so calligrapher became a fashion among goverment and people.

沈荃存世的书法墨迹较多，

there's a lot of calligrapher remain in the world.

楷、行、草书都有，以楷、行书最多。

contain Kai,Xing,Cao,especially for Kai and Xing.(Kai,Xing,Cao is a type of calligrapher.)

他的书法能成为宫廷御用书法，

His calligrapher can became the one use of goverment,

成为适应科举制度的干禄书体，

and the one use of imperial examinations,

必然是只注重形体表现，而缺乏神采的。

should be just only concentration on it's shape,less of it's spirit.

即便是善书的康熙皇帝，

even the calligraphic emperor,

也未能脱此弊端。

can't take escape from this abuse.

次郭棻，字快圃，直隸清苑人；

I can't find his history.

次王澤宏，字昊廬，湖北黃岡人；

I can't find his history.

次耿介，字逸庵，河南登封人；

教育学家

次田喜??，字子湄，山西代州人；

I can't find his history.

次張英，字敦復，安徽桐城人；

清朝宰相，

the Premier Minister of Qing.

是一个心胸非常宽广，谦虚，节俭的人。

is a very broad-minded,humility,frugal man.

据《桐城县志》记载，

by the

康熙时期文华殿大学士兼礼部尚书张英

the 文华殿大学士(emperor's consultant) and 礼部尚书(the Main Officer of Li Minister(for comity,sacrifice,banquet,education))Zhangying's

的老家人与邻居吴家在宅基地问题上发生了争执，

parents tangled with their neighbor Wu for their curtilage

家人飞书京城，

his family write him quickly to the capital

让张英打招呼“摆平”吴家。

let Zhangying help them beat Wu.

而张英回馈给老家人的是一首诗“

but Zhangying give a poetry to his parents:

一纸书来只为墙，

Just only for wall on the letter,

让他三尺又何妨。

Why shouldn't give them three chi.(尺)

长城万里今犹在，

the Great Wall is still in there,

不见当年秦始皇。

But we can't see the Emperor Qin Shihuang

”家人见书，

his family received the letter,

主动在争执线上退让了三尺，

step aside three chi(尺) from the line positive,

下垒建墙，而邻居吴氏也深受感动，

and build the wall,the neighbot Wu jiminy

退地三尺，建宅置院，

step aside three chi(尺) too,and build the wall,

六尺之巷因此而成。

the name is six-chi(尺) Street is formed.

参与了平藩、

He have been joind conquer the 藩(a lord)

收台湾、

receive Taiwang

征漠北、

conquer the North

摊丁入亩、

disseminate the people to their farm

改土归流、

marshal the land and river

编棚入户

registered permanent and building their houses.

等一系列大政方针的制订和实行。

and so on. set up and execute a series of political institution.

对稳定当时政局，

It's useful and positive for the political stability

统一国家，消弭满汉矛盾，

country uniform,hush the Man-Han(different nation in China) contradiction.

强盛国计民生都起到了积极而重要的作用。

and nation's economy and the people's livelihood

二人为官清廉，

Two man is handcleaned in office,

人品端方，

their character(moral quality) is good,

均官至一品大学士，

their are all rise to First level daxueshi(emperor's consultant)

是历史上著名的贤臣良相。

their are the famous officer in history.

同时二人还是史家公认的学者大儒。

meanwhile the two man are consider as the great confucian by historian

据载，

by the recordation

张廷玉之子张若霭殿试得一甲第三名（探花），

Zhangtingyu's son Zhangruoai won the first lever third place in court examination.

张廷玉跪求雍正换人，

Zhangtingyu ask Yongzheng(emperor,Kangxi's son) change his son on his kneel

以留得名额给天下平民英才，

in order to leave the quota to the common people.

因为张家已太多出人头地的机会了。

because there's so many chance for Zhang's family.

次李錄予，字山公，順天大興人；

I can't find his history.

次朱阜，字即山，浙江山陰人；

I can't find his history.

次王士禎，字阮亭，山東新城人。

博学好古，

well-kown and interesting in history.

能鉴别书、画、鼎彝之属，

can distinguish the book,painting,ancient cooking vessel,(鼎彝)

精金石篆刻，

good at metal and stone's carving,

诗为一代宗匠。

poetry and became a great scholar

书法高秀似晋人。

his calligrapher is similar with Jing(a dynasty)

康熙时继钱谦益而主盟诗坛。

He is the chairman after Qianjianyi in Kangxi period.

Hahoo,

Chanslate this material nearly kill me,there's a lot of vocabulary is not fitted.

:wink:sorry

[itchy]

this is great information! so much history in such little cups!

[chrix]

I wonder if this will spread to Korean and Japanese names too.

For Korean names, this has been the same as for Chinese names, in the European languages I know of.

Japanese has long been the exception, however for a few years, the Japanese Foreign Ministry has been advocating the order surname - given name, however I haven't seen many Western media organisations follow suit...

[Lu]

isn't the family name in the last?~!

In most western countries, family name comes last. In China, Korea, Japan and others, family name comes first.

Sometimes, when a Chinese person comes to the west, the order gets reversed (Zhang Ziyi becomes Ziyi Zhang, Li Yiyun becomes Yiyun Li, but Hu Jintao and Chen Shui-bian remain Hu Jintao and Chen Shui-bian). But I'm assuming that these Qing ministers never felt the need to change their name in such a way, and so we should not change their names either.

I might well be wrong about the 字, I don't know the proper term and was partly guessing.

[trien27]

No. Although previously in English many people would write a Chinese name in "givenname surname" order to match English-language name order, it's both confusing and unnecessary, and now it is generally held that Chinese names should be written in the normal Chinese order - surname givenname.

Sorry, I know I'm a bit off topic here, but it's somewhat related, so please bear with me.

Besides the quote by Imron above, there's more of a confusion created by those living in Hong Kong with names like for example, "Tony Leung Chiu Wai", where Tony is his chosen English name, Leung is his last name from Chinese but romanized, and Chiu-wai / Chiu Wai is his Chinese name but romanized. His name could either be Tony Leung or Leung Chiu Wai or as I mentioned before, the combination of Tony Leung Chiu Wai! Although Tony Leung Chiu Wai is used to distinguish himself from another Tony Leung, which was really the case here or it might have been to distinguish himself form another person with the same Chinese name of Leung Chiu Wai, where this isn't the case.

Edited July 8, 2009 at 11:01 PM by trien27
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