Pinyin Initials

[Elliot]

I just cannot figure out why 'W' and 'Y' are not initials in Pinyin and likewise when to pronounce a 'W' and 'Y' sound.

I really need help with this. I've tried searching on the internet for help but I can't even find even that gives an explanation I can understand.

Thank you.

[renzhe]

They are not initials, because there is no initial They are used when there is no initial, and the final stands on its own.

They are written as initials to make things easier to read, especially in compound words.

uei -> wei

un -> wen

uai -> wai

uo -> wo

iao -> yao

ian -> yan

ü -> yü, etc.

If you didn't do this, then you'd have very strange and ambiguous words, like

yuyan: üian

wuwei: uuei

biaoyan: biaoian

Just remember that w = u and y = i, and you're set. They only appear as initials.

In theory, they are never pronounced as "w" or "y" sounds. "yao" is the same as "iao". In practice, you can sometimes hear the "w" sound, but pronouncing it as "u" should always be correct.

[Elliot]

Thank you for you reply.

Perhaps this is where my confusion has lays then. I understand the use of 'w' and 'y' but not the pronunciation, or I would if I didn't think I'm hearing 'w' and 'y'. But the words I have picked up so far, I must have misheard them to begin with then 'Wo' for 'I' to me has been sounding as if it carries an 'W' sound to begin with. Likewise with 'ye' for also, I have been hearing with a 'Y' in the beginning.

So... when pronouncing wo or uo, I don't place a 'w' at the beginning? How does the hearing of 'w' rise then?

Thanks for your help.

[renzhe]

u/w and i/y are very similar anyway.

There isn't much difference between "uo" and "wo", or "ie" and "ye" . I think the difference you're hearing is mostly due to the shortness of the vowel when it is not preceded by an initial.

I'm not an expert on Chinese phonetics, but I'd say that "shui" and "shwei" are exactly the same thing. Or "biao" and "byao". Also, if you wrote "iao", it would sound exactly the same as "yao". "uo" with a short 'u' sounds like it has a "w" sound in the beginning.

[Hofmann]

The difference between w and u is that w is a semivowel and u isn't. w doesn't usually form the nucleus of a syllable. Same with j and i.