First Time Help

[smanek]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this site and this looks like a great place to get some much needed help. I just graduated from undergraduate college in the United States and have a year before beginning law school. I want to spend that time doing something interesting, different, and full of experience - like teaching English in China for a year. First, I am planning on working through this site and wanted to know if anyone had any information on the company/program (especially if it's a scam or something).

http://www.chineseculturecenter.org/

Second, I need help for listing preferences of places I'd like to study. One of the main things for me is that I don't speak any Mandarin at all. I am willing to learn while there, but don't expect to reach an effective working level. I am currently deciding between Nanjing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, and a few other places. Am I wrong in thinking that Shanghai would be the best only because of my nonexistent Chinese language skills?

Third, I am kind of wary about spending a whole year in China without knowing much about the country and having never been there. What should I expect? Where would you recommend to live?

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it because I'm pretty lost with what to do right now.

[BrandeX]

A. They are BS'ing you that 1rmb = 1 USD in China, if you are getting 4 grand a month rmb, that's like the lifestyle of a sub 1000 usd a month job in the states.

B. They are recruiters, it is their job to cheat you out of your money, and skim off the top from all monies exchanged. They work for themselves/schools not you.

C. Don't even talk to anyone that is trying to scam you outta cash CHARGING you money for a job. The grand US they are asking is about a month or 2 of your salary depdening on what job you get.

D. If you wanna live in China and not bother with the language, Hong Kong might be easiest, everything is in English, and nearly everyone speaks English as well.

[anonymoose]

I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for a job. That's ridiculous.

I used to work for Aston English in Dalian, and I can vouch for them that they are responsible and reliable. You could try contacting them directly. Having said that, they don't have schools in any of the places you mentioned, and you can probably find jobs with a higher salary if you search carefully.

Shanghai is not a bad place to be if you like a cosmopolitan lifestyle, but don't expect to find much of a traditional Chinese enviroment here. Personally, I think Shenzhen is quite dull, the only good thing being that it's right next to Hong Kong. Nanjing is probably quite a good compromise, but there are many other cities in China which I think are also nice like Dalian, Qingdao, Xiamen, Hangzhou etc. Of course, though, it depends on what you are looking for.

By the way, what was your undergraduate degree in? If that is something you could teach in China, then your earning potential increases significantly.

[zerolife]

Where you want to go depend on how adventureous you are.

Personally, I prefer studying Chinese at an university as opposite to those language schools for foreigners. You are more likely to make Chinese friends... which is the best way to improve your Chinese. The disadvantage is you are more on your own as they won't have a great support system for foreigners.

Hong Kong is easier for you but I wouldn't recommend going there. It's more like the West than China and Mandarin Chinese is more like third to Cantonese (primary language) and English (due to the large foreign / British population).

Third, I am kind of wary about spending a whole year in China without knowing much about the country and having never been there. What should I expect?

Getting ripped off, getting embarassed, feeling you really want to jump on the next plane home... It's not home so if you can't adjust to a vastly new environment, then stay home.

[self-taught-mba]

I think some people are being unjustly harsh here.

$1000 to have everything arranged and a decent contract is not a whole lot. Think of it as insurance against getting ripped off. How many horror stories are out there? And again, it depends on the value of your time.

I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for a job. That's ridiculous

People pay for jobs all the time--even in the US. You think head-hunters' fees don't come out of your salary? It's indirect but you are still paying for someone's help. The money will come from somewhere.

Ave. salary in BJ as of a while ago was ~2800. But they will give you housing also, it looks like. So in terms of purchasing power parity I think I would not agree with Brandex's statement, "that's like the lifestyle of a sub 1000 usd a month job in the states". That's just not a valid economic argument to say that the salary they are talking about is equivalent to a level below the poverty line in the US.

It might not be the best deal you can get though either. You have to weigh what you put in in terms of your time or money vs. what you get out of it. There are betther jobs, and worse ones too. Long term it might be better not to use them, but then they don't even seem to charge for subsequent placement.

From your second placement and subsequent placements, you only need to pay your visa fee plus visa service fee for each new placement if necessary.

That seems pretty ok to me. Second year you can look on your own and if you don't find something higher where you like, you can still have their placement-- seems like risk reduction to me. (which most ppl here don't seem to have a problem with paying for when it comes to insurance-- now do they?)

If you want to save some of your time and possibly reduce your risks then it seems somewhat fair to me. Of course they need to "skim" off the top or charge you. You wouldn't work for free, why would you expect others to do so? That doesn't mean they are "cheating you out of your money".

I have no relationship with this company. I've seen a LOT worse in terms of the terms provided by other companies. It seems legit and even has a Western manager.

@Brandex If you are working at a school you already are using a middle-man. Think about it. They are the middle man between you and your students, and they reduce your salary below what it could be. They are--get this--skimming! Of course going out on your own involves risk/effort on many levels. So you are basically trading money for a reduction of risk/effort. It's all the same.

[anonymoose]

People pay for jobs all the time--even in the US. You think head-hunters' fees don't come out of your salary? It's indirect but you are still paying for someone's help.

You're comparing two entirely different situations to make what seems like a rather far-fetched point. Head-hunters' fees are out of the control of the person being head-hunted - the only choice they have is to take the job or not - so regardless of whether the cost comes out of one's salary or not, it is not something that one has the liberty to determine. And besides this, we're talking about teaching English in China here - not the kind of occupation that would involve head-hunting anyway.

The point is, English teaching jobs are easy to come by, and there is no reason why smanek should have to pay an exhorbitant fee for a job that he could easily get for free.

Of course going out on your own involves risk/effort on many levels. So you are basically trading money for a reduction of risk/effort.

This is a valid point in theory, but you're making a very tenuous assumption here, which is that by paying the fee and buying the services of the company, the risk will be reduced. A lot of the "horror stories" you mentioned result from people going through intermediaries, so unless you can be certain about the service provided by the company, it may well be that involving them increases the risk rather than decreasing it.

$1000 to have everything arranged and a decent contract is not a whole lot.

What is the "everything" you're talking about here? $1000 is a lot to pay for arranging something that is very simple to arrange anyway, not to mention that $1000 is probably also quite a significant fraction of the value of the contract itself.

[self-taught-mba]

Re: headhunters

It is not far-fetched. Look it up. Go thru a headhunter and lose money b/c part of the budget for the position is taken up by headhunters' fees and the ability of the company to pay salaries as a whole is diminished. Your point about not having the l i b e r t y to choose is off. You can choose whether to go through a headhunter or not. Which is my point. Many people still do because it help save time and maybe increases the chances of finding a job. But there is a cost involved even if you don't see it.

The point is, English teaching jobs are easy to come by, and there is no reason why smanek should have to pay an exhorbitant fee for a job that he could easily get for free.

And a lot of them end up on this board asking about visa runs. This company includes visas and the fee for them is included in the transportation.

What is free? Is your time free? So don't say that. It is not truthful. If you said, "he could easily get by spending time researching options." then that would be true. The value of the service depends on how you value your time. But your time is not free.

Re: Risk reduction: Good points but I see that it:

-has testimonials (can verify I am sure)

-office in US (an avenue of recourse)

-seems to have appropriate license

-second year option ("real" option)

Time reduction

-saves time

-airport pickup/chinese lessons etc.

Most people on this board are do-it-yourselfers. They perform a lot of the work by themselves, they spend a lot of time and sometimes get into troubles (visa, contract, etc), meanwhile proclaiming there is no cost involved by doing it on one's own. Not everyone is like that. I don't think this company makes a ton of money. And I don't think it is fair to use terms like "cheat", "scam", "exhorbitant " and such.

Reseach them of course, and make a determination whether or not the benefits outweigh the costs involved. Since I value my time, I probably would have considered something like them if I wasn't sure about other options.

Edited June 20, 2009 at 04:28 AM by self-taught-mba
toning it down

[anonymoose]

It is not far-fetched

It is far-fetched, because as I stated in my previous post, we're talking about teaching English in China here - not the kind of occupation that would involve head-hunting anyway.

And a lot of them end up on this board asking about visa runs.

There are a lot of people asking about visa runs here, but it seems most of them are China old-hands who come on F or L visas, knowing fully well what that entails. Yes, I'm sure there are also those who've been unfortunate by signing contracts with illegitimate schools, but as I mentioned previously, a lot of them have also run into trouble by going through irresponsible agents.

What is free? Is your time free?

You're applying simple economic text-book theories to complex real-life situations, and I don't think it's very appropriate here. Yes, of course you can put a value on your time, but then you're making the assumption that had the time not been spent on researching teaching options in China, it would have been spent on earning money to the value of the time instead. OK, for arguments sake, let's assume that's true. This guy has just graduated from his undergraduate degree. How much do you think his time's worth? Let's generously say he could earn $52000 per year. That means $1000 is a weak of his time. It should not take the equivalent of a full-time weak to research and find a reliable English teaching position in China. (And as BrandeX pointed out, $1000 is more like 2 months worth of salary according to his earning potential as a teacher in China.)

And I don't think it is fair to use terms like "cheat", "scam", "exhorbitant " and such. Reseach them of course, and make a determination whether or not the benefits outweigh the costs involved.

I didn't use the terms "cheat" or "scam", but I do maintain that paying $1000 to get a job which could easily be obtained for free is "exhorbitant". Research them? What were you saying about the cost of time? If time needs to be spent researching, I'd rather spend it researching the free path than the one that's going to end with a $1000 fee.

Re: Risk reduction: Good points but I see that it:

-has testimonials (can verify I am sure)

-office in US (an avenue of recourse)

-seems to have appropriate license

-second year option ("real" option)

Time reduction

-saves time

-airport pickup/chinese lessons etc.

The school I suggested in my first post has all these things you've listed here, and they don't charge to get a job with them. There are also plenty of other international English education chains operating in China (English First, Wall Street English just to name a couple) that have similar benefits. There is no reason why smanek should have to pay any money, let alone $1000, to secure a reliable teaching position in China.

[self-taught-mba]

It is far-fetched, because as I stated in my previous post, we're talking about teaching English in China here - not the kind of occupation that would involve head-hunting anyway.

Many schools here use headhunters actually. My point was that ppl naturally accept one form of middle man, but not another even though they both have costs.

Please remember it was in response to this assertion:

I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for a job. That's ridiculous

And I was just demonstrating that it is a common occurance by bringing up the headhunter example.

You're applying simple economic text-book theories to complex real-life situations, and I don't think it's very appropriate here.

Hardly. But I'm not gonna spend more time arguing it. Different ppl value their time in different ways. You actually are using a much more rigid, simplistic approach with your formula: ignoring that often, because working hours occupy one's time that one is ready to pay more to save freetime since his or her free time might be very limited. Hence working hour /= non-working hour for many ppl. You would've bolstered your case significantly if you had counted tax effects btw. You are ignoring factors.

And you hardly addressed the risk reduction factor(or reduced stress) or the repeat contract provision, nor gave credit for any of the included items that would otherwise cost one money.

Re: other schools

I did mention this might not be the best deal. Any of the schools you mention might be ok, but I think the last two are fairly limited in terms of locations and the business model is vastly different from what most consider traditional teaching. I don't think EF or WSE will give someone the same experience as smaller schools. They are more training centers rather than schools. Met a few people that felt like a number working at those kinds of places. So there are tradeoffs with those too.

This really is pointless. It looks to me to be not entirely unreasonable. You obviously disagree. When I look at EF/WSE profits vs. what they pay and require from teachers vs. this small company I would be more inclined to say EF/WSE are more adept at extracting money from the teachers.

@OP

Look at all of your options. You have a strong recommendation for Aston, so it might be worth taking a look at it if you want Dalian. If this company can arrange things outside of the larger cities or lesser known places and that appeals to you it might be worthwhile. EF/WSE are options but I've met a few people that weren't so happy with the business model compared with a traditional classroom, and you are restricted in terms of locations. There are lots of jobs available if you look. But there are also lots of horror stories. Bigger companies are more stable(or are they? largest one in Japan went bankrupt suddenly leaving its teachers stranded, and Modern English started having trou ble paying people here when they overexpanded) but might make you feel like a cog in a machine and have less interaction with the culture.

There are trade-offs with both.

Good luck.