Changing Employers on Z visa / Residence Permit

[Hero Doug]

I'm wondering if anyone has heard about a new rule that states that you must have a recommendation/release letter from your previous employer when moving to a new employer.

The letter basically states that you fulfilled your contractual cbligations.

I was told that this letter is now a MUST. I was also told that without this letter there is absolutely nothing you can do in the way of getting another work visa. Meaning, even if you went outside of the country and tried to start the process anew, you'd still need to go to your previous employer and ask for that letter.

If this is true, anyone looking to stay in China for a significant period of time are now slaves to their employers since they'll just hold that letter above your head. Without that letter you can work illegally or go home.

Anyways, I'm just looking to hear what others have heard about this issue.

[roddy]

Nothing new although as I've always understood it leaving the country (and canceling the existing residence permit) does restart the whole process as it were, meaning you don't need that letter. A search on 'release letter' throws up a few relevant topics.

What's actually happening?

[Hero Doug]

Well that's a bit of good news. I'll worry a lot less if I can start the process anew.

The problem is that I'd like to stay in China a little longer and study some more and tie up lose ends. I was told by my next employer that there is no room to maneuver in the matter; I MUST have that letter in order to work for them.

She (HR of my next employer) also said that any future jobs, anywhere (in China), anytime in the future, would also need the release letter from my latest employer. She said it didn't matter if you started the process again or not, you still need that letter. She said this is a new rule.

It just seems like a bit much because as I said above any employer can just hold this letter over their employees head.

I was told that they are obligated to give you the letter, but a Chinese friend looked online for me and said that if you break the law or the contract then they can refuse to give you the letter.

I didn't break the law or the contract, I only refused to take on extra classes which meant I gave them a little extra work. As far as I know you do have the right to refuse extra work in China.

I'll call the HR department and ask again about starting the whole process over again. This is her first year so maybe she's a bit unclear about what can and can't be done.

[roddy]

Sounds like you've got an HR person who's misunderstood things, although it's not impossible that the rules have just changed, or that things are being done differently where you are. If necessary say you're going down to the PSB to clarify things - that'll get her on the phone or down there herself.

As I understand it - If you transfer jobs in China, you will need it at some point in the process. If you apply for a new working visa overseas, you won't. I also recall it being necessary in some circumstances in Hong Kong, but hazy on that . . .

But 'anytime, anywhere' doesn't make sense - you could leave for five years, then come back and still have to get a letter from your original employers? China would never implement such an inconvenient rule.

[Hero Doug]

That's exactly what I thought about the rule. To need that letter for all future employment seems excessivly strict. What if the employer went out of business or the management changed that they don't even know who you are.

As I said I'm going to give her a call now and see what she says.

[Hero Doug]

Ok, I just gave her a call and clarified things.

Apparently that "rule" was a misunderstanding. You can start the process anew by going to Hong Kong. The problem was that this way is much more inconvenient.

If I don't get the letter tomorrow then I'll be making a trip to the Deans office and I'll hand deliver a letter explaining my intentions to take it up with the SAFEA if the issue isn't resolved promptly.

It's a bit of a breath of fresh air.

[roddy]

Looks like what you need is a 解聘证明, which can be as simple as

解聘证明：

兹证明：***同志与我单位已离职并解除劳动合同关系，并按要求办理了相关离职手续，特此证明！

某某单位

某年某月某日

I can also see references to needing a 推荐信, but all of this is on university, rather than PSB, websites. The formalities you need to complete with the PSB are 变更手续 or 迁移手续。

[Hero Doug]

I have stamped certificate stating that I have completed my contract but the PSB said it wasn't enough, they want the reference letter.

I'll have the letter on Monday so a trip to Hong Kong shouldn't be needed.

It's quite annoying since it seems like the rules change each year; although it's probably just a matter of which civil servant you get and which rules they wish to apply.

[grahamr]

Ok this is the situation, I really hope someone can shine some light on this for me.

Basically, I told my current employer I wont be continuing with a further contract and have left them now the current contract has finished.

I came on a Z visa, through a foreign experts certificate and letter of invitation. The Z visa was converted into a residency permit in China with the right to work, duration 12 months.

My current employer gave me a letter with details of when my contract started and also expired and that I no longer work for them after this date, it has the company stamp on it, it was a typed letter, in Chinese, I verified the contents as my wife is Chinese.

My new employer is trying to sort out my new residency permit/work permit but has run into problems. They have so far got a new foreign experts certificate issued, but cannot get the work permit sorted out. They have been several times to try and sort it out, and each time they are told that I am still registered with the other company and therefore cannot proceed until either.

A) The other company goes to the authorities and hands in the original document, therefore officially ending my employment.

B) Hands over the original document to myself, which the new company can hand in and sort the matter themselves.

The old employer will not do it, they wont hand any documents to me, nor are they willing to go to the authorities and sort the situation out for me.

We have tried all manner of ways to reason with them over this, but have hit a massive brick wall and cannot get them to do anything.

As I understood the situation, if a person runs into problems like this and cannot sort out their visas/permits within China. What they did was to go back to their home country and start over again. Their new employer gets a foreign experts certificate and letter of invitation again, to which I then apply for a new Z visa and come back to China, have another medical and covert into the residency permit again.

However, we have been told twice that if the old company refuses to hand in the original document to the authorities, or hand it over to me, I will always be registered with that company, even long after my current contract and residency permit have expired, and therefore will never be able to get another visa and work in China again.

Is this true ??? Am I screwed if they wont help me, I really dont want to have to uproot and go back to my home country and stay there. My wife is Chinese and we have just had our first born here, it would be a complete nightmare.

If anyone can help explain the rules and what I can do if the old company wont help me at all it would be very appreciated. Im really panicking and stressed over this whole fiasco now.

[roddy]

Merging a new topic in, and editing title . . .

Grahamr, do you know what specific documents we're talking about. As far as I can see, all you can do is continue to hassle the current employer (perhaps via a lawyer - might be a bit of a bluff, but . . .) and ask the PSB what specific regulations apply and get a copy of them to back that up - and if you come across anyone friendly there, see if they might make a quick phone call.

[grahamr]

The specific document appears to be the original work permit issued, for me to work for the current employer. What I am told is that the current employer either needs to give it to me so I can hand it to my new company, who will take that to the PSB and can continue with my work permit application, or they need to go to the labour office themselves and cancel it.

After reading this thread that my post has been moved into, am I correct in the assumption that what I have been informed about never being able to get another working permit, even in my own country, if the old employer does not end the employment with the authorities, is actually incorrect, and that I can simply go back home, allow my current residency permit to expire and start over. My new employer is quite happy to do it that way if there is no other choice available, but had been informed that you cant do it like that by the PSB.

[roddy]

I don't know - previously I would have said it would be fine, but if it's the PSB telling you that, and you'd be coming back to get your residence permit from the very same PSB . . .

Is this all in the same city?

[grahamr]

No this is the thing, my wife spoke to the PSB in our city, and the person who informed her of this seemed a little vague about what she was telling her, then she proceeded to say that it would be better if she phoned back on another day when one of her colleagues was working, who could give her better information.

[Tinamt]

If you need to extend your working visa and meantime you are changing to a new emploer, then the current policy requires you to get a release letter from your previous company. The letter shows the Labour department that you have finished your contract with the old company without any dispute. Then the Labour department will be able to extend your Employment Permit for another year under a contract from the new company. Once you get your Employment Permit from the Labour department, PSB will extend your residence permit with no doubt. The release letter is only for the Labour department, so the officier in the PSB may not know this requirement clearly.

If you choose to leave your current working visa going expired and thinking about to get a new one, it is ok, but you have to go through the whole process again. Take long time and may get complicated as the policy is changing time by time.

[Hero Doug]

I just went through a similar problem and was told something that was pretty much like you were told.

The HR person at the place where I'm at now originally told me that I needed the co-operation of my old employer to transfer my visa. I was told that without the release letter I'd NEVER be able to transfer it to any future employer.

She later said that I could make a trip to Hong Kong and start the process over; the problem is that it's more work and she would rather not do it if possible.

I'd like to think in your case that the person you spoke to was someone who doesn't know the rules, or fully comprehends the situation. She may have been thinking that you'd never be able to transfer your current visa without that release letter. Starting the process over might not have entered her mind as it's kind of a loop-hole.

On the topic of your last employer.

I spoke with an agency and was given some good advice.

The first rule given was ALWAYS be polite. Even though they are in the wrong for doing this to you, and potentially breaking the law by not properly releasing you from your contract, don't ever show anger with them.

I was told to personally hand in a politely written letter asking for the release letter needed. Something saying along the lines of you enjoyed your time there but you feel it's time to move on.

If that letter didn't work it was suggested that I write another polite letter stating that I'm again asking for the release letter, and if it's not provided that I'd take the matter up with the PSB. Again, always being polite.

It was suggested that I also inform the foreign director that I'd also give copies of the letter to other staff members, like the head of the English department. I can't remember if that was for the first, second, or both letters.

The agency worker said that most people he worked with successfully obtained their letter since the foreign director didn't want to deal with any trouble from his superiors.

I personally didn't have to use all the advice, my matter was settled through the phone. You might be able to take a similar approach.

The one thing that I was told was that since I had a stamped certificate stating that I completed my contract that they also had an obligation supply me with a release letter.

If it's also their duty to release your work permit then you may not be at a loss since you have proof that you completed your contract. It might be something you want to check into.

Keep us posted, I'd like to get some more insight into this issue.

[grahamr]

Well, this employer has had every opportunity to play nicely and we have been nothing but polite throughout this, the answer is still no. They have really messed things up for me now as there is not enough time left between me visiting my home country to renew the visa in China.

So, my wife and I have been to the Labour Courts yesterday and started litigation against them. The courts have told us that in refusing to get an out report and terminate my current work permit, they have broken the labour laws in China and will be prosecuted and fined by the state, plus we sue them for all costs involved and also potential loss of earnings due to me not being able to start my new job on time, and if that job falls through because of this then sue them for a hell of a lot more.

Its a pity it has had to come to this but I dont see why I should tiptoe around this issue any longer to be honest.

What I will have to do now is go home this month as planned for a holiday, and when my residency permit expires at the beginning of August, come back to China on a 1 year multiple entry L visa based on the fact I am married to a Chinese Citizen. That way, my new employer can get me a work permit without me having to leave the country and its like starting from the beginning again.

[Hero Doug]

So it sounds like it's not all bad news then since you can start the process over again and it even fits in with your travel plans ;)

Also, if you're so willing, please post the outcome of your court case against them. It's good to know what the law is in this situation, but it'll be better to know if it gets upheld.

[grahamr]

Well, it appears I can start the process all over again. That is provided we are all correct about the fact that when your current residency permit expires, so does everything else, ie the reset button gets pressed. If not, and this rule about always being registered with the company until they de-register you, is correct, then I could be screwed for a while.

I had never heard of it before anyway, everyone I know of who has ever had issues with a previous employer like this has just gone home and started again, and given that Hero Doug also checked and confirmed that it was misinformation, I will go home as planned for a holiday and wait until the 4th Aug, which is the date my current permit expires, and then apply for a new Z visa. Otherwise I will have to wait until litigation has finished to get a new working visa, but will sue them for a lot more money if that happens.