洋洋洒洒 - appropriate English translation

[Scoobyqueen]

How would you translate the above expression? The dictionary definitions I have consulted seem too pompous, eg. powerful and magnificent; copious and voluminious. Could it just be translated as "extensive" or "eloquent"? Additionally, does it also have a longwinded connotation and can it also be used for something that has been overanalysed such as a political situation.

[jbradfor]

Do you have a context? I always thought that "洋洒" meant western-style alcohol (e.g. vodka, gin, whiskey).

[muyongshi]

Look closer. That would be 洋酒 this is 洒. As in 潇洒 de 洒

[leeyah]

ourchinese dictionary offers:

洋洋洒洒 yángyáng-sǎsǎ 'at great length‘ 形容文章或谈话长而流畅 这是经常不离木刻刀的,那又是洋洋洒洒下笔如有神的 which is quite close to your 'extensive'.

See also>>百度百科

And if you 百度一下 you may find the phrase in different contexts.

[HashiriKata]

洋洋洒洒: eloquent and grand in scale (without negative connotations)

PS: I would normally translate it as a "long and eloquent" essay/ speech. It tends to be used in a positive, complimentary tone.

Edited June 29, 2009 at 08:36 PM by HashiriKata

[jbradfor]

I should use a bigger font.....

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks for the contributions. That helped. This was the context:

国际媒体分析认为，洋洋洒洒联合国制裁朝鲜草案独缺如何方能知道朝鲜进行了核子试爆的条文。

[roddy]

Lengthy, wordy, voluminous? Can't see they're calling it eloquent

[HashiriKata]

Can't see they're calling it eloquent

Most of the sources I consulted point towards that direction, and I stressed this slightly to alert Scoobyqueen that it doesn't "have a longwinded connotation" as assumed in the opening post.

[HashiriKata]

Just came across a definition (现代汉语词典) that seems sum up nicely what I said about 洋洋洒洒:

"形容文章或谈话丰富明快，连续不断。"

and an example of its use (from 时代高级汉语):

一部 《水浒传》，洋洋洒洒百万言，作者却不因为是写长篇而滥用笔墨。

Roddy, even in the example given by Scoobyqueen, 洋洋洒洒 can still be understood positively along the line of "...inspite of being such a great document, it still fails to..."

[isela]

I read the context to understand that the author was being SARCASTIC!

洋洋洒洒 doesn't have any bad connotations, but the text was saying such a "洋洋洒洒“ document drafted by the UN doesn't even have a clue whether the tests were actually done.

The underlying meaning is that the document is such a joke/shame.

[leeyah]

Sounds quite right Isela!

Hmmm, after my lazy spell has gone, all I could come up with was: 洋洋洒洒联合国制裁草案 as referring to the lengthiness of the document (as in the number of provisions in the UN sanctions draft) envisaging many different situations (草案)独缺如何方能知道朝鲜进行了核子试爆的条文 except that it failed to provide adequate solution/response in the event of NK nuclear tests, or something like this (I'm not into politics, really )

Also, 洋洋洒洒 in

洋洋洒洒百万言，作者却不因为是写长篇而滥用笔墨

is very interesting. I wonder if it could be translated as: despite copious/unsparing use of dialects the author of "Tale of Water Margin" still managed to live up to the demands of writing a grand novel and/or put his ink to good use

PS @ Scoobyqueen: your Chinese must be really great if you can read stuff like this! 佩服！

[HashiriKata]

洋洋洒洒百万言，作者却不因为是写长篇而滥用笔墨

I wonder if it could be translated as: despite copious/unsparing use of dialects the author of "Tale of Water Margin" still managed to live up to the demands of writing a grand novel and/or put his ink to good use

No, I'm not a translator so here is just the gist of the sentence: Although it's a huge volume, its author didn't waste any word in it.

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks again for all the contributions. They really helped me understand the finer point which was what I was after.

HashiriKata - you understood exactly what I was looking for (especially the point about whether this could be negative eg "wordy").

Isela - Thanks for commenting on the sarcasm. I think this was why the expression was puzzling in the first place.

Leeya - My level of Chinese is nothing to write home about. It is just that I need to read a lot of texts similar to this one (though in this case the text was not work-related). It is a struggle most of the time and sometimes boring too.

[Scoobyqueen]

I have an additional question to the above phrase. Which of the character(s), if any, should be pronounced with a neutral tone?

[leeyah]

Questions about 轻声 are tricky questions.

Hmmm......I wonder if this may help (or perhaps not? because we have 洋洋 + 洒洒 here and not "洋洒"):

形容词重叠的变调：

单音节形容词重叠后儿化时,第二个音节不论本调是什么,口语都读55调值,如"高高儿的","长长儿的","好好儿的","大大儿的".

单音节形容词的叠音后缀,不管原来是什么声调的字,也都要念成55调值,例如:"白生生","冷飕飕","亮堂堂","软绵绵","明晃晃","直挺挺","黑洞洞","沉甸甸".

双音节形容词重叠后,第二个音节变为轻声,第三,四个音节都读55调值(阴声),例如:"认认真真","老老实实","清清楚楚","干干净净".

IMO the best thing you can do is ask a native speaker to read it out for you & draw a conclusion from what you hear.

Or perhaps someone could post their perfect pronunciation of 洋洋洒洒 here?

For theory, a read of 东方语言学 (轻声的本质) may give you some hints.

[Scoobyqueen]

Leeyah - thanks a lot for your contribution. Useful as always.

I had a chance to ask a Chinese speaker and she said the tones should be

2 - 2 -2- 3 so no neutral tone there

Later I had another oppportunity to use this expression whilst talking to a journalist complimenting him on something he wrote and he stopped and complimented me on using that word. Good to know

We are both members of the mutual admiration society incidentally. Seems a lot of Chinese are.

[Jim]

In your original context, about the UN draft document, 'grandiloquent' might well do it.

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks Jim. I like that word but it might be a bit pompous for a newspaper article. It is probably one of these words that Chinese learners of English would be posting on an English-learning forums:wink: