Taboo about walking under someone's legs

[onebir]

I was on the top bunk of a hard sleeper from Shenzhen to Changsha recently. To avoid taking my shoes off, I propped my legs on the luggage rack. A woman asked me to 'move my legs so she could get past'. My legs were about 8 feet off the ground, so I said she could go underneath. She did, grumbling about me being rude.

I assumed she was a loon. Then one of the train attendants said the same thing, so I moved my legs.

I've lived in China for a couple of years, but up to now never come across this particular taboo - which strikes me as having more to do with superstition than manners. Does anyone know the origin/background to it?

[muyongshi]

I don't think it is a taboo. I think it's just viewed as impolite. Just as putting your feet/shoes [as they are dirty] on furniture, or near someone's clothes, etc. How did you get to the conclusion that it is a taboo?

[zhwj]

Probably just insulting - who wants to go under someone else?

There's an old, old story about general Han Xin as a young man being taunted by a bully who challenged him to fight, or to suffer the indignity of crawling through his legs. He took the second choice, and went on to become one of the greatest generals in Chinese history. Then he went back and rewarded the bully for helping him build character.

Edited June 30, 2009 at 11:30 AM by zhwj

[roddy]

Particularly if you've got your shoes on - pretty much standard to take them off if you're clambering about train carriages, as you're inevitably going to get your feet on, in or close to people's faces, luggage and bedding.

[onebir]

How did you get to the conclusion that it is a taboo?

It seemed to be a very specific thing that wasn't appreciated - crossing the aisle of the carriage with my legs. And the reaction was strong - people really didn't want to walk underneath. If it was just impolite, wouldn't they just have ignored me? Chinese people quite often complain about rude behaviour from other Chinese, but I've never seen them queue up to lecture the miscreants about it...

I did actually lie on the top bunk with my shoes on for a while - sticking them over the edge a bit to keep them clear of the sheets. I did hear one comment about that, but people generally didn't seem too bothered.

Probably just insulting - who wants to go under someone else?

What's the difference between going under someone else & lying under someone else? 2/3 of the people on a hard sleeper have to lie under someone else.

The strength & specificity of the reaction to walking under someone's legs - not walking near or lying under - seem taboo or superstition-like to me.

Anyway, this pissed off the people around me, to an extent I found surprising. So slippers are part of the hard sleeper travel kit. But remind me to try crossing the aisle with my legs while wearing slippers just to see if the reaction did in fact have anything to do with shoes...

[Meng Lelan]

Maybe I'm trying to overgeneralize but in China people tend feel sensitive about street shoes being arbitrarily worn in residential and sleeping area.

[gougou]

That is true, but I think onebir's got a point, too; most likely he would get the same reaction when not wearing shoes.

[Meng Lelan]

That reminds me how in the middle east, displaying the soles of the feet or shoes is supposed to be insulting.

[Hofmann]

Well, if I were there, I'd fear that dirt would fall on me, but the most I would do is ask you to take your shoes off. But then again, I was raised in the USA.

[onebir]

Well, if I were there, I'd fear that dirt would fall on me

There was a miniscule chance of that, given the length of time it would take someone to pass underneath. And probably the risk was about the same when my legs were crossing the aisle and when they weren't.

It was difficult to avoid passing partially under many items of luggage in the process of walking up the aisle. The risk of dirt falling one someone while passing (indirectly) under my shoes was probably about the same or less than the risk taken while passing under dozens of pieces of luggage - which might have been put on the ground previously - getting to ones berth, taking trip to the toilet &/ sitting under the luggage racks for long periods.

I really don't think it had much to do with shoes. As I said, wearing those on the top bunk - slightly protruding from the bunk to avoid the sheets - didn't elicit anywhere near the same reaction as crossing the aisle with my legs.

[lzreading]

It is a taboo in China, called '胯下之辱'. Since you are there, you'd better respect the locals' feelings.

[Meng Lelan]

Since you are there, you'd better respect the locals' feelings.

Yes, in other words, 入乡随俗.

[leeyah]

So it's called 胯下之辱 ... Well, thanks zhwj & especially Izreading for confirming that it IS a taboo. I somehow feel it may be seen as even more of a taboo if the person involved is a laowai. (Just a bold guess )

Here's the story in modern Mandarin & in 古文

& yes, I agree, when in Rome do as the Romans do

in other words, 入乡随俗

[Meng Lelan]

when in Rome do as the Romans do

Or better yet, when in China do as the Chinese do.

[onebir]

Thanks everybody for identifying the taboo/chengyu & the story behind it.

So it's called 胯下之辱 ...

Ok but...

a) Nobody had to go under my 胯, which was firmly on the bunk, to one side of the aisle, and...

B) comparing this with the 胯下之辱 story, nobody had to crawl on the ground to get past (趴在地上)...

As for the story, it may be what people cite when this chengyu is mentioned, but if crawling between someone's legs wasn't ALREADY a taboo by the time the story happened, the challenger wouldn't have offered it as a face-losing alternative to a fight. It's not hard to think up worse - or at least worse-seeming - alternatives: letting someone pee/crap on you for example.

Yes, in other words, 入乡随俗.

跟上时代

随成语时

分析清楚

别盲目地

随过时俗

以思开放

为你的荣

But perhaps this is asking a bit much...

Edited July 7, 2009 at 02:46 AM by onebir

[isela]

I just tested this in my mind. And the answer is: Yes! I will be offended.

As for the reason, I would say that it's generally related to the "胯下之辱" story, but CERTAINLY not that strong. I think I just don't feel like going under someone's body. That makes me feel inferior. I'm actually having some trouble to believe that this can't be understood by a foreigner.

Maybe I'm trying to overgeneralize but in China people tend feel sensitive about street shoes being arbitrarily worn in residential and sleeping area.

This is true, too! But it doesn't quite apply here. As my brain told me, with or without shoes, i'll feel equally aggitated.

I somehow feel it may be seen as even more of a taboo if the person involved is a laowai. (Just a bold guess )

Don't worry about it. It's the same for anyone.

[skylee]

I'm actually having some trouble to believe that this can't be understood by a foreigner.

I agree.

[leeyah]

I'm actually having some trouble to believe that this can't be understood by a foreigner.

Me too, because I understand you perfectly Isela, trust me. I don't like people walking over me either

Don't worry about it. It's the same for anyone.

Thank you for correcting my wild guess, I actually used it to provoke a response. (is that also called trolling?)

And yes, I always say the Chinese are the best people in the world.

[isela]

I'm sooo flattered! I'll eat two more bowls of rice tomorrow!

[onebir]

As for the reason, I would say that it's generally related to the "胯下之辱" story, but CERTAINLY not that strong. I think I just don't feel like going under someone's body.

You go under other people's feet all the time - unless you avoid multi-story buildings. If you do live/work in a multi-story building, chances are while you're sitting on the toilet, sometimes people are defecating directly overhead, and you only find out when you hear the flush...

That makes me feel inferior.

I accept that. I'm asking you to think about why, whether it should, and in what contexts.

If someone orders you to 'abase' yourself, sure, that I can understand it would be insulting.

But in the situation I described there was:

a) no order/request - or even interest in whether people were 'going-under' - from the 'gone-under' person,

B) no requirement for the 'going-under' person to physically lower him/herself in any way. This is part of the english meaning of 'abase'. (I realise the english meaning isn't at issue here, but some Chinese acts indicating inferiority, like kow-towing, also involve deliberate physical lowering.)

So the context is quite different. Doesn't that matter?

I'm actually having some trouble to believe that this can't be understood by a foreigner.

Of course I understand, but it's odd to me that you feel that way (as I've explained at length above). Can't you understand that?

What makes you sure I'm a foreigner BTW? What if my parents were Han/Tibetan/Zhuang/Uighur/Salar/Tai/Tujia?

I agree.

I'm actually surprised; I didn't think people from HK would share this taboo... I know a social psychologist based in HK & I'm going to bring this thread to her attention.

As for 入乡随俗, & the Roman equivalent , perhaps they made sense when they were coined: travel was slow & rare, & telecommunications didn't exist. But what's the 乡 of an international phone call, a chatroom, or indeed this forum? Clearly, a kind of inter-乡. Whose 俗 do you follow in London, New York, Singapore... Hong Kong?

The world is gradually heading in this direction. Including China. Unless China closes its borders again - an excellent policy that was after all.

In some ways, even since 改革开放 even at a policy level China is still pretty closed. (eg foreign investment.)

I think the events on the train, and to some extent this discussion, illustrate continuing 'cultural' closure. There are enough concrete sources of international conflict (resources, treatment of ethnic groups...) All cultures insist on 入乡随俗 to some extent, but it strikes me that the ones that are relaxed about it avoid conflict and benefit from contact with other cultures.

And yes, I always say the Chinese are the best people in the world.

BTW, in my 乡, this would be a racist comment...