Chinese Language in Singapore question

[Deepblue]

I am and American who is seriously considering expatriating to Singapore. Although English is officially the main language of Singapore, I understand Mandarin is widely spoken there, and I would really like to start learning Mandarin because I think getting a solid command of Mandarin would be beneficial to my career because of the growth of the Asian economy, and because I think it would be a much richer experience speaking Mandarin while being there.

Right now, I'm waiting for my wife to finish her last two semesters here in the states so we can sell our house and make the big move, and I'd love to start learning the language while I wait.

Does anyone have any advice about how (which resources) to learn Mandarin in the context of dialect/s commonly spoken in Singapore? I'm currently trying to enroll in a college Mandarin course, but I don't know how effective that is, and whether it will really prepare me to speak overseas. I"m also very interested in learning independantly during my commute and on my computer in my available time.

I've read a review or two about Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone which claimed that about 10% of the words Singaporean Chinese speakers use differ greatly from what is taught in Pimsleur / Rosetta, and that that caused serious problems for the reviewer. This has me a little apprehensive about investing the time and effort into those products.

Can anyone here give me any advice or direction so I can put the best use to my time?

[calibre2001]

I don't think I've come across any Pimsleur type of learning material catered for Singapore styled Mandarin. But I don't think using resources that teach standard-beijing-style Mandarin (which most material is catered for) will impede your ability to communicate in Mandarin over there. We all start somewhere anyhow.

You can check out Popular Bookstore. Textbooks used for teaching Mandarin there should expose you to a range of local vocab used.

In general it is more akin to Southern style Mandarin, which does at times use different slangs, choice of words.

[HarryCallahan]

A good Chinese friend of mine who works in Beijing has a new boss who is from Singapore. I was interested about the language difference and asked if she (the new boss) spoke with a singapore'hua, she said no she just speaks normal Chinese. Singaporean English though is said to have a unique accent.

I would imagine fluent Chinese speakers are not flustered by subtle regional variations.

Any difference is surely to be small and also standard putonghua will serve your career goals better than any other so you may as well learn it. Learn the Chinese that everyone else learns!

[Lu]

I love Singaporean English, it's my favorite kind of English!

The Singaporean Mandarin that I've heard (ok, mostly on tv etc) was not really different from the Mandarin spoken in China. There will be differences, but nothing so major that it calls for a special textbook. If you learn Chinese for a year, you'll have basic Chinese, which will be helpful, but you'll still run into so many things you don't understand simply because it's above your level, that any special trouble because it's Singapore not Beijing will be hardly noticeable in comparison.

[calibre2001]

This is how Mandarin is typicaly spoken there

or

[wannabeafreak]

I love Singaporean English, it's my favorite kind of English!

You're kidding right? To me it shouldn't even be considered English. Putting aside accent, the grammar and intonations are far from being anything standard or accurate. I struggle to understand what the average Singaporean is talking about half the time.

This is how Mandarin is typicaly spoken there

Guess who's the Singaporean??

Reminds me of an ex-colleague who would pretend to speak Cantonese by inserting 60%+ English when speaking.

I've been to Singapore many times for work and from my observations, you'll STRUGGLE to learn Mandarin. Singapore people are too proud of speaking Singlish that you start to offend them if you don't speak English.

I would be extremely impressed if you could convince the average Singaporean person to even say anything more than ni hao ma and continue on in Singlish.

[Lu]

accent, the grammar and intonations

That's exactly what I love. Perhaps it shouldn't be considered English (language vs dialect debate, this), but I don't care. It sounds good.

[Meng Lelan]

Ten years ago I used to live right across from a Singapore guy. His Mandarin was absolutely perfect. So we conversed all the time in Mandarin.

Five years ago I met a woman from Singapore and her English was better than her Mandarin considering she had married an American, but we were conversing perfectly fine in Mandarin.

So I can't see any huge difference between Mandarin in Singapore and Mandarin in the mainland, thus I can't say I would agree with comments from wannabeafreak.

[yueni]

Ok, here's the deal with Singapore (I'm Singaporean).

Officially, we have 4 official languages: English, Mandarin Chinese, Malay (which is also our national language) and Tamil. All Singaporeans can speak at least one or more of the above four languages with some level of fluency. In school, all students learn English, and then typically one of the other three (Hindi is also included for some Indian students who have northern Indian ancestry).

At least 80% of Singaporeans have Chinese ancestry. Most of this comes from the southern Chinese provinces (Fujian, Hainan, Guangdong etc). As a result of this, a lot of Chinese Singaporeans speak in dialects at home, particularly with their parents and grandparents. Also, because of this, Singaporean Chinese tends to have a pretty strong southern accent, not dissimilar to that found in Southern China.

In order for the Chinese groups in Singapore to be unified and not be split along dialectical lines, the Singaporean government decreed that Mandarin Chinese be the official language to unite all Chinese speakers in Singapore. As a result, most Singaporean Chinese under 40-50 years of age have some level of command of the language.

How well they grasp the various languages varies from person to person. One of my cousins is fluent in English, but despite over 10 years of Chinese language education in Singapore schools is so shit in Chinese that a typical first grader could probably speak circles around him. His sister, on the other hand, is fluent in English and has an intermediate-ish grasp on Chinese. You could hold a decent conversation in Chinese with her. On the other hand, one of my aunts is fluent in Chinese (she went to Chinese schools almost exclusively), but her English is pretty shitty.

Since the language background of Singaporeans (particularly that of the older generation) is so complicated, Singaporeans came up with a pidgin naturally over time that is known as Singlish, which is basically a mash up of English, Chinese (and all its various dialects), Malay and Tamil, jumbled up together. A Malay speaker will tend to use more Malay terms in Singlish, while a Hokkien speaker will tend to use more Hokkien terms in Singlish. I personally do not consider Singlish a dialect of English, but rather a pidgin or creole in its own right.

So to answer the original question, just studying basic putonghua will be fine. Most younger Chinese Singaporeans should have some kind of command of the language, with varying degrees of fluency. You will find some regional variations like that in English. (You know, in British English the back of the car is the boot, while in American English, it's the trunk; a lorry is a truck... etc. etc.). Honestly, it's not that big of a deal. Just learn plain ol' Mandarin and you'll probably learn the variations like I did when I moved to Beijing. =)

[HashiriKata]

So to answer the original question, just studying basic putonghua will be fine. Most younger Chinese Singaporeans should have some kind of command of the language, with varying degrees of fluency.

This is true but I need to add that if you (=the OP) really want to speak Chinese in Singapore, you'll first have to get yourself very good at it, even better than you would in China or Taiwan, or you'll get very frustrated. Since most of the people there who you're likely to be in contact with would have a very high level of English, the natural tendency for them is to speak English to you if you've got too much hesitation in your Chinese. Don't be put off by this but make it a motivational factor. Edited July 5, 2009 at 07:59 AM by HashiriKata

[renzhe]

I think that at least 95% of the difficulty will be getting to a decent level in standard Mandarin. Actually adjusting to the Singapore peculiarities should be a much smaller problem in the grand scheme of things.

[isela]

I am a native Chinese, and I had lived in Singapore for 7 years, collectively.

I have some reserved opinion about this topic.

I don't think that Singapore makes a strong-enough environment for beginners to study standard Mandarin. When I was here (yeah, right now I'm in SINGAPORE!) I needed to downgrade my Chinese a whole lot in talking with them. I can't be funny, as they mostly won't get it, and I can't use any deep idioms or tricky expressions either. Honestly, I feel that the vast majority of Chinese Singaporeans speakers Chinese below the 初中 level as in mainland China. I ridiculously had a hard time here speaking Chinese.

As for English, I do have my respect for Singlish. I have no particular opinion whether it should be considered as a dialect or a unique language. However, I want to say that I'm just really happy that I made it to leave the island to study PROPER English.

Once again, these are just my personal opinions. I'll be really sorry if I made anyone here feel bad.

[creamyhorror]

I don't think that Singapore makes a strong-enough environment for beginners to study standard Mandarin. When I was here (yeah' date=' right now I'm in SINGAPORE!) I needed to downgrade my Chinese a whole lot in talking with them. I can't be funny, as they mostly won't get it, and I can't use any deep idioms or tricky expressions either. Honestly, I feel that the vast majority of Chinese Singaporeans speakers Chinese below the 初中 level as in mainland China. I ridiculously had a hard time here speaking Chinese.

As for English, I do have my respect for Singlish. I have no particular opinion whether it should be considered as a dialect or a unique language. However, I want to say that I'm just really happy that I made it to leave the island to study PROPER English.[/quote']

Absolutely true, and I say that as a Singaporean. There's nothing to deny about our average level of Chinese and English being half-past-six (Singlish expression ), but it's really because there are big variations between different social groups. Some people speak perfect English, while others speak excellent Mandarin. The vast majority fit somewhere in the middle.

Many people will make an effort to speak proper English when speaking to native English speakers, but in everyday conversation and informal contexts, you only get Singlish. It's a losing proposition to try learning English in a Singlish environment, and I sympathize with foreigners who come here hoping to learn by exposure.

In the past, most people spoke dialect (Hokkien, Teochew, Canto, Hakka, etc.) or Mandarin at home, but it's been shifting towards Singlish in recent years. Nonetheless, there's a very large segment of society which is primarily Mandarin-speaking (educated in the Chinese medium schools of previous decades), so those are the people the OP would have to get to know in order to have conversation opportunities. It might be quite difficult to do.

Many of the folks who speak English well don't use Mandarin that much, either because English is the prestige language or because they're crap at Mando and never speak it anyway.

OP, when you're here, you can try joining Chinese conversation groups (check Meetup.com and google around) or, heh, take part in community centre activities or classes, where Mandarin is often spoken. Better yet, take introductory Mandarin courses or get a private tutor who really knows the language (it need not cost you that much, you can find university students from China offering such services).

This is how Mandarin is typicaly spoken there

Guess who's the Singaporean??

No' date=' not at all. This is the "Mandarin" spoken by English-educated people who can't speak Mandarin to save their life. Chinese-speaking people definitely don't sound like this, although they mix in English words as well, which is perfectly acceptable here.

Listen to the interviewees

Now *this* is a lot more typical of Chinese-speaking folks. It doesn't sound like the earlier one at all. The guy at 2:40 is a good example of older Chinese speakers.

[calibre2001]

I think you guys are being a really fussy bunch with all this language elitism. The people in Singapore are at least functionally bilingual (and quite a alot are trilingual or beyond). Now let's not get into the definition of being 'functional'

[isela]

@creamyhorror: Your post is very informative! And thank you very much for your understanding!

@calibre2001: I guess you're right, too! People in Singapore are at any rate really impressive by the number of languages they manage on the conversational level. On my defence, we all have the tendency to be perfectionist sometimes don't we?

[Meng Lelan]

I think you guys are being a really fussy bunch with all this language elitism.

That's what I was starting to feel here, thanks for validating my view of the Singapore world, calibre2001.

[dajackal]

I'm in a similar situation to the OP.

A friend of mine who's ethnically chinese was in Singapore last month and was surprised to find that alot of the store keepers and shop owners spoke to her in Mandarin. She believes the reason being is the large influx of Mainlanders working and studying in Singapore.

So this got me thinking, if I locate myself in districts with large numbers of mainland chinese then I will have the immersion factor when carrying out daily activities - going to the newsagent, buying groceries etc. etc.

How valid is this assumption?

[Guoke]

She believes the reason being is the large influx of Mainlanders working and studying in Singapore.

Could it be the large influx of Chinese Malaysians working and studying in Singapore instead?

Most of the Chinese Malaysians working and studying in Singapore are Mandarin speakers. They are good at Mandarin but poor at English.

If you go across the Johor-Singapore Causeway to Johor Bahru, the second largest city in Malaysia, Mandarin will really come in handy. Mandarin is the lingua franca among the Chinese community there. This trend of using Mandarin as the lingua franca among the Chinese communities throughout Malaysia is becoming more and more widespread and established.

In general, Chinese Malaysians' command of Mandarin is much better than that of the Singaporeans because most of them go to schools where Mandarin is used as the medium of teaching for at least six to twelves years.

It's strange that little is known to foreigners, including Mainland Chinese, that such an established Mandarin community exists outside Mainland China and Taiwan. Typically, the Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese are a little taken aback when they find out that the Chinese Malaysians are able to read, write and speak Mandarin so well.

[dajackal]

Could be. Her mandarin is very basic and she only spent a few days there as a stopover from London.

So I take it that there are greater numbers of Chinese Malaysians than Mainland Chinese working and studying in Singapore? I'm not too fussed either way, so long there are opportunities to use Mandarin on a daily basis, as opposed to Singdarin or Singlish.

Reason being, I'm keen to use Singapore as a stepping stone to working in China, and I want to brush up on my Mandarin before making the jump.

Are there equivalent Chinese communities within Singapore whereby Mandarin is used exclusively that I could base myself? Or is it simply a case of making friends that you can converse in Chinese with.

[yueni]

@Guoke

Based on the accents of the people there when I was in Singapore, it was definitely the influx from Mainland Chinese speakers (particularly those from Northern and Northeastern China) rather than the Malaysian Chinese community.