different local putonghua accents analysis

[zozzen]

Inspired by Li San San and Koo Ting Lok's putonghua clips shown on youtube, I'm wondering if it's possible to get all rules regarding different accents in putonghua.

Here are examples:

In Cantonese, many words start with K turns out to be Q or J sound in Putonghua.

Example:

K ---> Q/ J

奇 (Canton: Kei ) --> qi

期 (Canton: Kei ) ---> qi

企 (canton: kei) ----> qI

巧 (canton: kiu) ---> qiao

技 (Canton: Kei) ---> ji

及 (Canton: Kap) ---> ji

肩 (Kin) ---> jian

健 (kin) ---> jian

(Thanks Hofmann for correcting the romanization )

Also :

H < ---> W

湖 (putonghua: Hu) --->, Wu (Cantonese)

滑 (putonghua: hua) ---> waat (cantonese)

和 (putonghua: he) ----> wo (cantonese)

And this one:

Y (putonghua)----> W (cantonese)

永 ---> wing

榮 ---> wing

鬱 ---> wat

As far as i know, many southern accents including Yunnanese, Cantonese and Hanzhouese also share these characteristics :

J --> K

街 (putonghua: jie ) ---> Gai

解 (putonghua: jie) -----> Gai

鞋 (putonghua: xie) ---> Hai

Any more examples on this?

Edited July 12, 2009 at 10:37 PM by zozzen

[Hofmann]

Most romanization systems write [kei˨] as in 技 as gei6.

But anyway, palatalization of velars (or the other way around) before and [y] are more a characteristic of Mandarin than a characteristic of other languages.

And just a friendly suggestion: If you're going to talk about phonology, you'd best either learn a popular romanization system like Jyutping or Yale, or write IPA.

[yonglin]

Perhaps this chart could be of interest?

[katyjo]

http://www.chinese-lessons.com/conversion/soundChartMandarin.htm

[bathrobe]

These are not "putonghua accents", these are the pronunciations of different dialects of Chinese. The whole point of putonghua is that it has a standard pronunciation, even if there may be regional variations in the way people articulate it. But pronouncing 永 as 'wing' is not putonghua at all, it is a different dialect of Chinese (some would say a different language) -- Cantonese.

There is a website that covers this in considerable detail, including information on tones:

http://language.glossika.com/

[zozzen]

But pronouncing 永 as 'wing' is not putonghua at all, it is a different dialect of Chinese (some would say a different language) -- Cantonese.

The so-called dialect accents of Putonghua is often like this, with differences in tone and pronunciations that resemble a dialect.

Here's an example of Cantonese putonghua:

"Hen wing xin yenxi ni " (很榮幸認識你) -- Y vs W sound / R vs Y sound / x vs shi

Some other common features (if not mistakes):

an vs ang is often interchanged , shown in the example Leeyah mentioned above.

en vs eng

In vs ing

And more:

Ou vs Ao --- 澳洲 vs 歐洲

When people say "Wo hen wing xin lai dou ao zou yenxi ni " (我很榮幸來歐洲認識你) , the sounds for 榮、幸、到、歐、洲、認、識 is all non-standard, but you'd possibly say it "very bad putonghua" rather than a "dialect".

Perhaps this chart could be of interest?

A great list, thanks yonglin! I found that the conversion very useful, but is there any rule regarding the tone too? And as I live in Xinan guanhua (西南官話) region, I'm looking for a list for Yunnanese and Xichuanese too. Do you have any idea?

Edited July 13, 2009 at 10:52 AM by zozzen

[leeyah]

Originally Posted by zozzen:

And as I live in Xinan guanhua (西南官話) region, I'm looking for a list for Yunnanese and Xichuanese too

Chinese Dialects

Yunnan dialect

Sichuan dialect

四川方言与普通话语音的声母差异

四川话拼音方案 >> this one is a short sound chart

[yonglin]

A great list, thanks yonglin! I found that the conversion very useful, but is there any rule regarding the tone too?

If you click "Tone Conversion" on the left of that page, there is an explanation of tone mappings and potential caveats.

[zozzen]

I've briefly checked the list, and it's quite interesting to see that many words (not sure if it's all) start with "w" in Cantonese turns out to be "f" in Sichuanese (户、沪、护，乎、呼，胡、湖、糊，互、壶、虎、狐、浒), which in another turn , becomes "f" or "h" in putonghua. How did it evolve?

[bathrobe]

Right & this has got nothing to do with the title of this thread

I stand corrected: The topic appears to be "analysis of interference from Chinese dialects in the pronunciation of Mandarin".

It still seems to me that the OP has a fuzzy notion of what the topic is. Asking "How did it evolve?" returns us to the question of how different Chinese dialects evolved from an earlier stage of the language -- which is what I was reprimanded for introducing into the thread. If there are sound rules tying Cantonese to Mandarin, these rules exist because of the way that the two languages/dialects have evolved.

With regard to the topic of interference from Cantonese dialect in speaking Mandarin, the OP seems to be referring to the kind of rough-and-ready rules that unschooled Cantonese speakers use to arrive at an approximation of Mandarin, resulting in very strong interference from the local dialect. The poorer the rules-of-thumb are, the worse the resulting Mandarin is. The Cantonese-Mandarin conversion chart that yonglin linked to is a kind of sophisticated version of this. The "conversion chart" suggests to a Cantonese speaker the probable pronunciation of the Mandarin cognate of a Cantonese morpheme. In fact, this chart is too sophisticated from most Cantonese speakers, who use "wing" rather than "yong || rong || ying || reng" as recommended in the table. In other words, if we want to discuss how Cantonese dialect interferes with Mandarin pronunciation, we have to look at how Cantonese speakers fail to implement the recommendations of the chart.

The kind of interference discussed above would probably be somewhat different from that of dialect speakers who have learnt Mandarin properly at school. For instance, many educated southern speakers of Mandarin manage to largely separate their dialect from Mandarin, resulting in much less interference of the kind that the OP talks about. But even these speakers have trouble with certain sounds, e.g. speakers of dialects that lack of the retroflex sound and replace it with a non-retroflex, or those whose local accent lacks a distinction between 'n' and 'l'. These are people who speak good Mandarin but have problems with pronunciation, resulting in an "accent".

[Hofmann]

How did it evolve?

Most of the characters you list have initials [ɣ] and some [x] in Middle Chinese. Among Sichuanese Mandarin, Standard Mandarin, and Standard Cantonese, I'd say Standard Mandarin approximates the [ɣ] initials best, and match [x] exactly.

Also, I agree with bathrobe

[xiaocai]

I've briefly checked the list, and it's quite interesting to see that many words (not sure if it's all) start with "w" in Cantonese turns out to be "f" in Sichuanese (户、沪、护，乎、呼，胡、湖、糊，互、壶、虎、狐、浒), which in another turn , becomes "f" or "h" in putonghua. How did it evolve?

But these words are all pronounce as "hu" in putonghua. From my personal experience I think it is mainly because of that a lot of Sihuanese varieties don't really have the final "u" but "v" instead. So I think that it might be better romanised as "hv" other than "fu".