"Losing face", and how to deal with arguments in China?

[xiexieniii]

Is it culturally a normal thing for Chinese people to make false accusations -- especially against a lao wai, knowing that no one will believe the lao wai when he/she tries to defend him/herself -- in order to "save face"?

Are you (the lao wai) not supposed to argue with the (Chinese) person, even if you have facts to prove the person wrong, because this will bring about a "losing face" situation?

What if the person did something completely unacceptable? Is there a time when it is OK to call someone out on their shit? Or do you really have to to just walk away from this situation and save your energy, because trying to prove your point with facts will end up nowhere?

Edited July 28, 2009 at 07:45 PM by xiexieniii

[yonglin]

No, it's not culturally normal. It's not only about saving face, but also about giving other people face.

From my understanding, it's considered impolite to openly criticize other people since that shows lack of respect. So if the accusations were made in front of other people, the person making them would be considered rude irrespective of whether they were justified or not.

Similarly, if you hold "facts" to prove someone else, don't bring them up in front of other people if that will embarrass the person in question. You need to give face, too.

(Also, I think that if the person applies different moral standard in dealing with Chinese and foreigners, you may consider whether the person is worth your time in the first place.)

[renzhe]

It's not about what you "have to do", it's about understanding that washing dirty laundry in public and making someone look stupid in public are very offensive to Chinese people, even moreso than in other countries.

It's up to you how you handle this, but you should be aware of what consequences it will have.

Imagine if you told all your friends, in public, that your partner is terrible in bed. This might be correct, and you might have facts on your side, and make a jolly convincing argument, but if you value your relationship, you should consider not doing it anyway. If you don't value the relationship, then this would be a very good way to hurt someone. But you're running the risk of looking like a bastard in front of everyone.

Giving face is a bit like that.

[xianhua]

"knowing that no one will believe the lao wai when he/she tries to defend him/herself"

The chances are that if you are working in a close environment, like a school office, then the others will know the character of the person accusing you, and will know full well that the accusations are false. In which case, you would do well to hold your head up and get on with the task in hand.

[xiexieniii]

It's not about what you "have to do", it's about understanding that washing dirty laundry in public and making someone look stupid in public are very offensive to Chinese people, even moreso than in other countries.

What if the other person has started criticizing you in front of others? And not only criticizing, but adding in false accusations and bearing false witness? If you are the victim of this, are you supposed to remain silent? Or would it be acceptable at this point to call the other person a liar? (You were minding your own business when the accusations were made.) What about *my* face (not that I care about face, but apparently it has already been lost because I was falsely accused)? Or does the rule not apply to lao wai?

This is also not a work situation but a family/friend/host/guest situation. I was the guest, and one of the hosts did something incredibly wrong to me. When I brought this up to the host's sister (not in front of anyone, however naturally my story got back to the host), instead of an apology I was (dishonestly) accused of damaging furniture and picking fights with the host's son. I assumed this was her way of trying to deflect the blame off of the fact she did indeed so something pretty wrong. I have never been in a situation where, as a victim I'm then blamed as an instigator, so I assume this is a cultural matter. (Perhaps I never should have brought up the fact that I was wronged by the host? It was a pretty obvious, blatant wrong though...)

Edited July 28, 2009 at 09:53 PM by xiexieniii

[renzhe]

Sounds like you ran into some good old-fashioned ***holes. Perhaps you did something to offend them without knowing, but that stuff is hardly considered normal.

The question is whether your best strategy in such a situation is to seek conflict and try to prove you're right, or simply rise above it and seek more pleasant company. Face is not something you have to give, just like you don't have to be polite to people. It a good idea in general, though.

[xiexieniii]

I may have done something to offend them without knowing -- sleeping in late? Staying in my room too much (reading or studying)? Not speaking very often because my Chinese is still pretty poor? Those are the only three things I can think of.

It's an unavoidable situation now because the host's sister actually lives with my mom back in the States. (The host's sister is actually the owner of the apartment we were all staying in, in Beijing...) And I am incredibly offended by what has happened. I am on the verge of kicking out the host's sister out of my family's house. (I was already kicked out while here in Beijing, because the host apparently wanted to take the room I was staying in -- I was asked to find a hotel or find my own apartment. This was the event I had described to the host's sister, and that's when the false accusations started.)

Edited July 28, 2009 at 10:29 PM by xiexieniii

[renzhe]

Sounds like there are far deeper problems there than cultural misunderstanding. And sounds like an uncomfortable situation to be in.

[gato]

Living with a host family is hard, and conflicts are par for the course.

What if the person did something completely unacceptable?

(The host's sister is actually the owner of the apartment we were all staying in, in Beijing...) And I am incredibly offended by what has happened. I am on the verge of kicking out the host's sister out of my family's house. (I was already kicked out while here in Beijing, because the host apparently wanted to take the room I was staying in -- I was asked to find a hotel or find my own apartment. This was the event I had described to the host's sister, and that's when the false accusations started.)

She doesn't want to host you any more? Why do you say that it's completely unacceptable? It's her house, isn't it?

Not wanting to host you doesn't sound like a culture-specific problem. The Chinese part of it might be that she led you to believe that she wanted to host you in the first place, whereas in the back of her mind, she didn't really want to. But because of face, she didn't express that reluctance to you at first.

[xiexieniii]

She doesn't want to host you any more? Why do you say that it's completely unacceptable? It's her house, isn't it?

It's actually not the "host's" house, it's the "host's" sister (currently living rent-free in my apartment in New York) who owns the Beijing house. The "host" is merely staying in that Beijing house for the summer as well. Thus she does not own the house, and yet asked me to move. I actually had every right to stay in the house until informing the house-owner about the matter, but I decided to leave without first calling New York to find out what was going on. I only called the house-owner after I had already left.

It's unacceptable because the house-owner (1) is currently a guest/immigrant/recent homeless divorcee in my family's home in New York, living virtually rent-free (2) as a favor for staying rent-free in my family's home, she offered to let me stay in her Beijing apartment during my travels here (3) did not want to get involved when the person house-sitting her apartment in Beijing (not the owner of the apartment, or even the partial-owner) decided that she didn't want me living there.

Anyway, it won't be that unacceptable once I ask my family in New York to ask the house-owner to pack her things and leave immediately. Then it will be fairly even.

Not wanting to host you doesn't sound like a culture-specific problem. The Chinese part of it might be that she led you to believe that she wanted to host you in the first place, whereas in the back of her mind, she didn't really want to. But because of face, she didn't express that reluctance to you at first.

That makes sense, re: the face aspect. But wouldn't it make her homeless sister in New York lose face even more after she is kicked out of my apartment in New York by my family? Or maybe that's not what face is. I have no idea.

Edited July 29, 2009 at 04:55 AM by xiexieniii

[anonymoose]

I think the 'face' thing is often overinterpreted by foreigners. In fact, everyone has 'face' issues, but because the Chinese have a specific word for it, then a lot of people tend to think it's something unique to the Chinese. Losing face is simply looking foolish in public. Nobody likes that, do they?

From what you've said about the situation, I don't think this is really a face issue here. I think you'd be justified in demanding your host leave your apartment since you were forced to leave hers.

[xiexieniii]

Hm. I thought it might have been a face issue, because the false accusations only began once the house-owner in New York was notified (by my mother) that I had left the apartment. Before that day, there were no complaints from the house-sitter in Beijing. So I thought perhaps the house-sitter was embarrassed after being confronted, and so she made up a story to distract from the fact that I was on the street. Thus, "the Filipino girl wrecked your furniture, fought with my son", etc. etc. I don't know. To me, it sounds like a face thing.

Anyway, if I requested a conference call between the three of us (me, the house-owner, and the house-sitter), would that be denied because of the possibility that the house-sitter may lose face? I am planning to set up a conference call, but I feel it will be avoided with excuses of some sort.

[gato]

How did you get into this arrangement? Are you friends with the woman staying your apartment in NY?

What are you trying to achieve at this point? Financial compensation? To get them to apologize? A conference call sounds a bit confrontational. A one-on-one would generally be better, unless you are trying to be confrontational.

[xiexieniii]

I'm supposedly friends with the woman in New York.

I don't think I can help being confrontational at this point when the woman in Beijing has accused me of destroying my friend's furniture, among other things. If all three of us are not speaking in front of each other's faces, there's a possibility the woman may make even more bogus accusations (slept with her husband, stole money, conducted espionage against the Chinese government from the living room, etc. etc.) if I do not put a stop to this now.

[anonymoose]

I thought it might have been a face issue, because the false accusations only began once the house-owner in New York was notified (by my mother) that I had left the apartment. Before that day, there were no complaints from the house-sitter in Beijing. So I thought perhaps the house-sitter was embarrassed after being confronted, and so she made up a story to distract from the fact that I was on the street. Thus, "the Filipino girl wrecked your furniture, fought with my son", etc. etc. I don't know. To me, it sounds like a face thing.

I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was that I don't think this behaviour is necessarily a result of them being Chinese. By attaching the 'face' label to this situation, it is as though this behaviour has some explanation specific to the Chinese, when in fact I imagine people of any nationality could do the same thing, albeit not very honourable people. My advice would be, don't worry too much about 'face' and just deal with the situation as you would if the people involved were of any other nationality.

[Scoobyqueen]

Why did you not raise your complaint with the host directly? In telling her sister, you must have known it would get back to her and that you were no longer in control of the message. How do you know the sister didnt twist what you said, for example went and told the host that you had accused her of stealing your things. (fictitious example).

The information going to and fro may equally have got twised. For example, are you sure that the host has indeed accused you of those things or is that something someone told you she said? If you havent heard any of these things first hand, I would give her the benefit of the doubt.

You could go and apologise to your host for having discussed the matter with her sister, saying you did not want to confront her directly as you were affected on the emotional front. You dont want things to get out of hand and therefore you would like to continue the relationship on a more constructive note, ie talk directly to one another. Would she be prepared to do that too could be your question thus landing the ball in her court.

[Scoobyqueen]

Ohh and by the way, I dont think it is a cultural thing. it sounds more like a dispute amongst females (I am female)

[jbradfor]

Anyway, it won't be that unacceptable once I ask my family in New York to ask the house-owner to pack her things and leave immediately. Then it will be fairly even.

I understand your anger, but that sounds very petty. To me, it sounds like all she is guilty of not having the balls (figuratively) to confront your "host" regarding your treatment. Given her recent circumstances (as you describe them), pressuring your family to ask her to leave does not sound like something you would feel good about in a year.

I'm with the other posters who state this is not a cultural thing or a face thing. To me, it just sounds like the "host" invented some excuses to justify her asking you to leave.

My only advice would be to tell your family opening about what happened. Besides finding a new place to live in Beijing, I think the only bad effects to you are if your family thinks (or wonders) if any of the negative things are true. Do you have any need to remain on speaking terms with your "host"?

Edited July 29, 2009 at 09:33 PM by jbradfor

[xiexieniii]

Ohh and by the way, I dont think it is a cultural thing. it sounds more like a dispute amongst females (I am female)

Hah, you're probably right.

Anyway, I have found out that my friend in New York actually did confront her sister in Beijing about why I was out on the street. Apparently they had a big argument about it. For several days, I was under the impression that my friend was just siding with whatever nasty things her sister said about me. And, from what I've heard, they are actually getting other family members in Beijing involved to help mediate the situation.

Phew, I was really gearing up for all hell to break loose on an international, inter-family scale. The Beijing host is not really important to me, but the woman in New York is someone my family and I have known for almost a year now. So thinking you need to cut off ties with someone you've known for a while is always distressing.

Edited July 29, 2009 at 07:34 PM by xiexieniii

[aljensen]

I always think of China as being a "contract" society - everything is done by contracts, usually implicit. The contract here was that your party would provide a place to stay in New York for the host if their party provided a place to stay in Beijing for you.

The simple solution is that the contract has been broken by their party (the host and her sister) so your party (you and your family) are no longer required to hold to your contract. Whether you do or do not is up to you and your party - however, if you do not seek retribution, the host will probably infer that you were in fact somehow in the wrong.

However, at this point it is most likely understood by the host that her sister was in fact just looking for a way to get you out of the home so she could have the apartment to herself.

I would not be suprised that if, on informing the host that she will have to find her own residence in New York, you suddenly find yourself welcome back into her Beijing residence.

Face is face, but the contract is key. The question is, what tangible thing is it that you want?