Language immersion tips

[Manoz]

I'll be going to China in about two weeks time and from September, I will be studying Chinese at Nanjing university. I already have a year of studying Chinese at an overseas university under my belt, so I have a very basic grasp of the language.

I'm just wondering, does anyone have any tips/advice/experience on the best way to improve my language skills over my next year in China? I'm wanting to take up some kind of 'Chinese hobby', but not sure what yet. Anything in particular to try and avoid?

Many thanks in advance!

[muyongshi]

Anything in particular to try and avoid?

English Speakers.

Honestly just stay away from 1) high foreign traffic areas 2) universities where have the student body is learning English.

Get into a "far away" place. Measure for if you've arrived= everyone stares at you. And then sit down there daily and make some friends.

Ok, so not necessarily that extreme but you get the idea. A hobby is a good idea just be sure to stay away from ones that their may be a high technical language {which if you want it that is not a problem, I'm just talking from a general language PRACTICE pov}, or one in which it is difficult to converse in the process of doing. Sprinting may fall into this category

[roddy]

Watch out for getting complacent at the 'getting around day to day' mark - it's easy to get to the point of being able to order the dishes you eat in the restaurants you go to, discuss stuff with your friends who are aware and tolerant of your linguistic idiosyncrasies, tell the taxi driver to go left at the lights, and then stop making much progress. Some day you're going to need to order new dishes at a different restaurant, discuss stuff with people less inclined to put up with your Chinese, and go right at the bridge.

[Manoz]

Thanks guys, really appreciate your responses.

Would you say that it's easy to make Chinese friends (who don't necessarily want to practice their English)? What about sharing a flat with Chinese flat mates? I'm down to stay in foreign dorms in Nanjing, which by the sounds of it wont help much!

Thanks again.

[imron]

Would you say that it's easy to make Chinese friends (who don't necessarily want to practice their English)?

It is if your Chinese level is sufficient enough to maintain a friendship without using English.

[muyongshi]

It's very easy, you just need thick skin. And the ability to really pick and choose your battles. This is where getting involved in some sort of hobby/activity can be very beneficial. Just notice what I said above about it.

For me sharing a flat won't improve my language. I go home and lock myself in my room. That's my personality though.

In response to Imron's comment, I think it is more about your determination. I couldn't maintain relationships at first but I just kept showing up, kept using what I was learning and quickly got to that point where I could develop relationships. And that was all without english. The key is to find people without English. And it's easier than you'd think. Find some tea house off in the back areas and go when it's not busy and talk a lot to the waitresses. Frequent places and build relationships. Use what you can and always bring something new to the table!

[mirgcire]

A year is a long time. One idea might be to join a student group that has no English speakers in it. Maybe tai ji quan, qi gong, chess, or anything as long as you are interested in it.

I travel to China on business a couple times per year and usually stay 2 or 3 weeks, so I never have enough time to get "involved" with anything accept my work. Mostly I travel to Shanghai. Each time I go I want to take advantage of being in China to improve my Chinese, so I seek out people who can not speak English. My free time is mostly unplanned, so I alway have a small portfolio of ideas to draw from.

For example: foot massage is often inexpensive and usually fun. It is not hard to strike up a conversation and there is no risk that you will be able to fall back on English. I just ask all sorts of questions, make observations, and practice what ever sentences come into my head. On my last trip I decided to learn the astrology signs, so I could ask "what is your sign". I know ... its kind of clique but got good results. I suggest foot massage, as opposed to any other type of massage because it is much easier to talk when you are sitting up.

When I go to the super market and the workers are not busy, I often engage them in simple conversations. Ask what the names of things are. Ask about the prices. Ask about products I can't find, etc.

When clothes shopping there are endless possibilities for conversations about quality, color, brand names, famous people, etc. I often enlist people to teach me by asking about a new word that I hear. I ask for a pronunciation, how to write it, try it in a new sentence. And then go back to using it with item of potential purchase.

Barginning for a price in the market can provide hours of practice and fun. Just be sure to be polite and don't get attached to the stuff you are negotiating about. If you are blond hair and blue eyes (like me), it is a sure bet that the opening price (for clothes, electronics, gifts, etc) is 4 times the bottom price. So I always counter with 20%. Don't forget you are there to practice mandarin, so don't spend the whole time arguing about price. Talk about the item, other items, the weather, business, current events. Go back to the price from time to time, to keep them interested. The only time I pay more than 25% is when I feel something is genuinely worth it.

I like to take the bus instead of the taxi. Beside the fact that you seldom get cheated on a bus, people waiting at a stop often have nothing better to do than help us learn Chinese. So tell them where you are going. Ask if they have been there before. Verify that the bus you are waiting for is going to the place you want. Find some chinese characters on the sign board and ask for help pronouncing them.

That's all I can think of. I wish I had more ideas. I am convinced that these simple strategies have helped me to improve my listening and speaking. Does anyone else have other suggestions for getting our Chinese friends to help us learn their language?

[chen88]

I went to one of the programs in Beijing where they kick students out who speak English, and we quickly figured out ways to get people to speak Chinese with us.

First of all, when you meet people start your conversations with them in Chinese. Chances are if you ask them a question in Chinese, they will naturally answer in Chinese, regardless of how incorrect what you just said was.

When people try to speak English with you, just tell them 对不起，我只可以说中文 or something to that effect. If they don’t believe you or ask why, tell them your program has a 语言誓约 or that it is 我学习汉语的项目的规定。They usually get the idea and drop the English. If they don’t, it’s probably not worth your time to chat with them because they are only adding you as a friend for English language practice. You could be getting paid to tutor in English, no need to do it for free.

I disagree with the “take taxis instead of buses” idea- taking taxis is a great way to get a captive audience with one Chinese person. Make sure they use the meter, and you won’t get cheated. Usually they are a bit bored driving and are delighted that a foreigner is actually interested in their thoughts and opinions. Buses are great, too, although it takes more guts to start conversations on them because there are lots of silent people. Also, you have to watch the topics you touch on more because everyone else is listening and you don’t want your conversation partner to lose face.

I also disagree with the bargaining strategy mentioned above. If you egg on people at the market too much, they will get angry. Also it’s not fair to them- their whole incomes depend on selling things, and if you hold them up bargaining for five minutes just for language practice then walk away without buying anything, there goes some of the money they could have earned to help support their families. It’s quite different than in other countries and professions where most people have set wages or are paid by the hour- keep this in mind, and respect them.

I also disagree that foreigners get prices at four times the actual value. It is more like ten times the actual value. Divide the price they give you by ten, and then consider how much you are willing to actually pay for it. Then start lower and work your way up to a price near your idealized one so both sides feel they gained a good deal. Most of the time you will end up paying more as a foreigner regardless of how much you bargain with them, but keep in mind that the money you are paying at the street stalls is probably more likely to go towards covering food, housing, education, and other essential costs than towards buying new iPhones or high-definition televisions.

Taking up a hobby is a great way to make friends- especially if your hobby takes you to places like the park where people enjoy hobbies together. I have friends who spent hours at the park practicing taiqiquan or playing ping pong with locals. Even playing Mahjongg with people on the streets is a great way to bond with people. And I am sure Nanjing University has numerous extracurricular sports and clubs filled with local Chinese students that you can get involved with.

Chinese roommates are a great idea, especially if they are willing to speak primarily Chinese with you. You can ask them the questions you can’t ask strangers, and growing close to a Chinese friend is the best way to gain new perspectives and start seeing different aspects of life the way Chinese people do. Plus, chances are they will introduce you to their friends, and in this manner you will build a more solid group of relations in Nanjing .

The best advice: don’t be afraid to talk with people because of your limited Chinese or because they seem to be minding their own business. Many people will enjoy talking to you in Chinese about themselves and their perspectives on different issues, and you will be wasting your time in China if you don’t take advantage of that.

[mirgcire]

Make sure they use the meter, and you won’t get cheated.

Turning on the meter is only a guarantee that the price is proportional to the amount driven. But all too often the amount driven is excess of what is required. I once had a driver that got 25 kuai out of me for a ride that should have been 11. I mentioned several times that he had gone the wrong way, but to no avail. ... however it did provide lots of opportunity to practice Mandarin

If you egg on people at the market too much, they will get angry.

I agree. I may have given the impression that I advocate monopolizing peoples time to the point of annoyance. This would be a bad idea. Actually, I should have qualified all my comments by saying how grateful I am for the many strangers who have given their time to help me learn the language. I am always surprised at how friendly people are, even in Shanghai. We are guests and we should treat people with respect.

I also disagree that foreigners get prices at four times the actual value.

I didn't say "actual value", I said "bottom price". But you make a good point, that the starting price should be based on what you are willing to pay, not what you think they will accept. And if you really have no intention of paying, then don't waste peoples time.

[Meshaq7]

Thanks for the good ideas you all.

[imron]

I once had a driver that got 25 kuai out of me for a ride that should have been 11. I mentioned several times that he had gone the wrong way, but to no avail.

If you have been ripped off, make a point of getting the receipt. It will have the distance traveled, the fare paid, and most importantly the driver's ID number and the phone number of his supervisor (and now to bring this back on topic) you'll have all sorts of interesting language practice after you mention you're going to call his supervisor and complain. If you give your point of departure and destination, the supervisor will know the price you should have paid and the extra amount cheated from you is not worth the trouble the driver will get from his boss. A bit of bargaining is then all that is required to bring the fare down to a reasonable price.

[Meng Lelan]

omg! This thread reminds me of my first REAL language immersion experience in a taxi - in both spoken Chinese and Chinese Sign Language. My Chinese deaf friend tried speaking to the taxi driver but what most people don't realize is, deaf spoken Chinese comes without tones. Taxi driver had no clue what she was saying or trying to say. So she ended up signing to me in Chinese Sign Language and I was interpreting that into spoken Chinese and having to add on the right tones to where she dropped (all) the tones and this was only my first week in China. aaaagggghhhh!!!!

As a result I have to agree with some of the posters here that a taxi is a private language immersion school on wheels, for better or worse. So, take the taxi for what it is, if you want to flee the English speaking cow crowds, then jump into the taxi.

[tortue]

They usually get the idea and drop the English. If they don’t, it’s probably not worth your time to chat with them because they are only adding you as a friend for English language practice. You could be getting paid to tutor in English, no need to do it for free.

Please avoid that attitude.

Or are you only adding them as a friend for chinese language practice? you could just pay a private teacher then.

Also it’s not fair to them- their whole incomes depend on selling things, and if you hold them up bargaining for five minutes just for language practice then walk away without buying anything, there goes some of the money they could have earned to help support their families. It’s quite different than in other countries and professions where most people have set wages or are paid by the hour- keep this in mind, and respect them.

This is true in cultures where time is necessarily money. What do we do in these cultures? We put a price sticker everywhere, pay always that amount and don't even consider for a second to bargain.

Other cultures do not work that way, and bargaining is not only common but also necessary and often even a welcome pass time.

I don't know where exactly chinese markets are ranking on that scale, but only the fact that bargaining is common and that people have the nerve to ask four or ten times a price tells me that it cannot be illegitimate to hold them up for, well, "five minutes" ;)

It's BTW because we stick that much to our way of thinking that we are often so bad in it. Here I am including myself in front row, even if I think I understand the theory...

[chen88]

When studying Mandarin in China, why not refuse to speak English to native Mandarin speakers? After leaving China, chances for Mandarin language practice become much more scarce. And there are plenty of Chinese students currently studying in the US who will flat-out refuse to speak Chinese with American students because they recognize that studying abroad in America is their precious opportunity to improve their English.

There is a different thread on this issue:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/303-global-ime-simplified-chinesetraditional-chinese-with-msn58

Here I am including myself in front row, even if I think I understand the theory

What theory? That Americans are too focused on the relationship between time and money? Chinese shopkeepers are usually quite courteous, and they appreciate people who respect their time and are courteous in return. Of course bargaining and trying to get a low price is important. But respecting the shopkeepers as people is also important.

Edited August 21, 2009 at 03:35 AM by chen88

[aljensen]

Also it’s not fair to them- their whole incomes depend on selling things, and if you hold them up bargaining for five minutes just for language practice then walk away without buying anything, there goes some of the money they could have earned to help support their families. It’s quite different than in other countries and professions where most people have set wages or are paid by the hour- keep this in mind, and respect them.

Have you ever worked retail?

The shopkeepers here are not victims, in a hyper-competitive (and quite literal) marketplace they are only there because they are quite good at what they do. Retailers operate on a system of triage, with the most avid buyer and the person who just came through the door getting precedence over everyone else. Besides, one of the first rules of sales is to keep a lukewarm buyer talking, sooner or later they will purchase something - and anyways, no one wants to eat in an empty restaurant, making the stall look busy is good for business.

[chen88]

The shopkeepers here are not victims, in a hyper-competitive (and quite literal) marketplace they are only there because they are quite good at what they do. Retailers operate on a system of triage, with the most avid buyer and the person who just came through the door getting precedence over everyone else. Besides, one of the first rules of sales is to keep a lukewarm buyer talking, sooner or later they will purchase something - and anyways, no one wants to eat in an empty restaurant, making the stall look busy is good for business.

Good point. I never thought of business at stalls in China that way before.

[aljensen]

Don't get me wrong - you can tell that they work for what they get, and it is really competitive. I appreciate that.

Maybe I've had some times when I got burned by the business people at the market, two or three instances I can think of. So I kind of feel like it is no-holds-barred capitalism, and devil take the hindmost. No quarter given,and none taken.

As far as taking up time - I think it depends to on selling ready made goods versus ones that are skill-based - like at the cloth markets where you get ready made clothes. For the tailors time really really is money.

No matter what, I think even the best bargainer if she or he is "white" is going to have to pay a higher price just because of the color of their skin, i.e. because you are a "foreigner". I've had one salesperson flat out tell me that, she was upset that I was trying to bargain down to a price that was for "our Chinese people".

[tortue]

What theory? That Americans are too focused on the relationship between time and money?

Just the theory how and why each of the systems work.

Chinese shopkeepers are usually quite courteous, and they appreciate people who respect their time and are courteous in return.

Ok. But asking ten times a price is not courteous but simply rude. My point is that it is almost a duty to bargain that price even if I'm not interested in the article just to show that guy that he cannot do with me what he wants just because I'm a foreigner, I'm not stealing his time. Otherwise he will ask even more the next one that comes along.