我哪里不文明了啊: Why the 了?

[anonymoose]

Here's part of a dialogue:

A: 果然很傻，被人骂了还这么开心你

B: 你可不可以文明一點？

A: 我哪里不文明了啊

What is the function of the 了 in the final line?

[renzhe]

It implies that the speaker appeared civilised before, but did something that made him/her appear uncivilised. A change of state, it seems to me.

Hence 不文明了.

[muyongshi]

I actually read it as being used for emphasis/exclamation especially since it is followed by the 啊, which means that typically the 了 would turn into more of a 啦.

[gougou]

I would also think it is for emphasis. The change of state is possible grammatically, but given the context I think it is rather unlikely.

[msittig]

I read it as speaker A defending himself, implying that he was usually a civilized speaker and that the speaker B only has an issue with speaker B's first line, not with his person as a whole. (IAMANS; I am not a native speaker)

[roddy]

(IAMANS; I am not a native speaker)

I agree with the post, but have to point out you can't spell either

[gato]

Not totally sure, but I think 了 is used to indicate past tense here. With adjectives (aka "stative verbs"), it's not always clear when to use present and when to use past. Some either present or past would be ok, with only a subtle difference between the two. With action verbs, the difference between past and present is much clearer.

Compare

我哪里不文明？ (Where am I uncivil?)

with

我哪里不文明了？ (Where was I uncivil?).

我傻 (I am stupid)

with

我傻了 (I was stupid).

我在被打 (I am being beaten)

with

我被打了 (I was beaten).

In English, the analogous usage in English would be past perfect simple for verbs (e.g. "was beaten"), and past simple for "to be" (i.e. "was"). "Perfect" just means a completed action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_tense

Simple past is formed for regular verbs by adding –ed to the root of a word. Example: He walked to the store. A negation is produced by adding did not and the verb in its infinitive form. Example: He did not walk to the store. Question sentences are started with did as in Did he walk to the store?

Simple past is used for describing acts that have already been concluded and whose exact time of occurrence is known. Furthermore, simple past is used for retelling successive events. That is why it is commonly used in storytelling.

Past perfect simple is formed by combining the simple past form of to have with the past participle form of the main verb: We had shouted. A negation is achieved by including not after had: You had not spoken. Questions in past perfect always start with had: Had he laughed?

Past perfect simple is used for describing secluded events that have occurred before something else followed. The event that is closer to the present is given in simple past tense: After we had visited our relatives in New York, we flew back to Toronto.

Edited August 14, 2009 at 06:33 AM by gato

[HashiriKata]

Not totally sure, but I think 了 is used to indicate past tense here.

I'm 100% with gato (on the strength of the Chinese sentence alone, without reference to English or the Wiki quote).

[imron]

Well, now we have about equal responses in favour of each of the different usages of 了 - change of state, emphasis and completed event. All we need now is for someone to come along and say actually in this sentence it should be pronounced liao

[anonymoose]

OK, I'll see if I can get hold of the person who originally wrote that line and ask what the intended function of the 了 was.

[jiangping]

Edited August 15, 2009 at 10:20 AM by jiangping

[leeyah]

My interpretation of:

A: 果然很傻，被人骂了还这么开心你

B: 你可不可以文明一點？

A: 我哪里不文明了啊

A:Just as I thought (果然) you're really stupid, people swear at you and you're seem happy about it, you!... (...=idiot>>final 你)

B:Hey, would you mind being a bit more civilized? (B means to say: less rude)

A:What do you mean I'm not civilized? (i.e. Hey, I'm not being rude)

Conclusion: 了 for emphasis, indicating a change in one's understanding, idea, view or action, same as>> 我现在明白他的意思了。= Now I see/know/understand what he meant by that! *All the confusion about Past Tense is probably created by the fact that you can also translate the sentence as>> I have now understood what he meant.

Compare with 催促劝止的 '了': or would you say 走了， 走了！不能再等了！is also Past Tense?

[msittig]

(IAMANS; I am not a native speaker)

I agree with the post, but have to point out you can't spell either

Guilty as charged.

Also, gato said it much more eloquently than I did.

[murrayjames]

Well, now we have about equal responses in favour of each of the different usages of 了 - change of state, emphasis and completed event. All we need now is for someone to come along and say actually in this sentence it should be pronounced liao

Thanks for this, imron! It made me laugh out loud

[anonymoose]

Well, I asked the original author of that sentence what the 了 was supposed to signify, and the answer I received was:

没有含义

为了句子通顺

中国人习惯

[gougou]

Most native speakers will reply that even if the 了 is obviously indicating a change of state or a past tense.

[gato]

没有含义

为了句子通顺

中国人习惯

Predictable. Hehe.

The average person doesn't really think about this stuff. Most native English speakers don't know what "past perfect" means, either, which is why I posted the Wikipedia excerpts. The difference is that whereas virtually all native English speakers know "have ..." means completion (it's taught in the lower grades), a lot Chinese might not know that about "了".

On another note, in some cases, people might use 了 and 啦 interchangeably, which might be why 了 might be used to indicate emphasis.

For example, you might see both 快点啦！and 快点了！in print. Is the latter considered a 错别字？

[imron]

As far as I understood, 啦 is a contraction of 了 and 啊, so 快点啦 would be not be a 错别字 as it is equivalent to 快点了啊。

[gato]

Interesting. Haven't heard that before. Do you have a source for a it? Couldn't find anything confirming that with a quick google just now.

[imron]

From my《现代汉语词典》

啦：‘了’和‘啊’的合音，兼有‘了’和‘啊’的作用。