得 (de) used in adverbial structures: which modifies which?

[Master Rakoczi]

I wrote a long question about this, but then decided to keep it simple.

In sentences where 得 (de) is used to create adverbial phrases, which word(s) modify which?

For example:

我说得快

wǒ shuō de kuài​

I speak fast

I don't understand if

1. de kuài modifies shuō:

wǒ shuō <-- de kuài​

or if

2. shuō de modifies kuài:

wǒ shuō de --> kuài​

It would make a lot of sense to me if the first case was true, i.e. 'fast' is describing (modifying) the speaking.

But then again concerning the way 的 (de) is used...

说的人

shuō de rén​

speaking person

a person who speaks

shuō de --> ​rén​

The second option would make sense too?

I hope somebody understand what I'm talking about

[skylee]

I think it is 2.

PS - also take a look at this thread (if you haven't yet) -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3114-grammar-3-%e7%9a%84%e5%be%97%e5%9c%b0

[muyongshi]

It's definitely #2. Think of it this way- what can be changed in the sentence and then you get the answer. 说得怎么样？说得快、说得慢、说得好、etc.

But it's not so much that the 快 is modifying the 说得 it's that 快 is modifying 说. 得 is the thing that facilitates the modifying, but itself is not modified. Hope that makes sense.

[imron]

@muyongshi, you say definitely #2, but your second line seems more like you agree with #1.

Anyway, I agree with your second line, which is really our option #3 - 快 modifies 说 and 得 facilitates this.

@OP, the reason it is different with 的 in sentences like 说的人 is that it is a different ‘de' (的) with a different meaning and function. Incidentally, I don't think sentences with just "说的人" are very common. It's more likely someone would say 说话的人.

[muyongshi]

Yeah option 3 is actually the correct one. I just started off saying 2 was right because it is the 说 that is being modified. And then I added the thing about the fact that it's not the 说得 being modified but just 说. Sorry for any confusion.

[seesaw]

I'll vote for option 1: de kuai modifies shuo.

And I see no difference between option 3 and option 1.

得(de) is often used to make a 补语(complement) after a verb, e.g.

气得很 (得很 modifies 气：怎样的气？很气。)

气得脸发青 (得脸发青 modifies 气：怎样的气？脸发青的气。）

笑得像花痴 (得像花痴 modifies 笑：怎样的笑？像花痴的笑。）

Sometimes 个(ge) is used instead of 得(de), e.g.:

（雨）下个不停。

[muyongshi]

Ha! I just now realized that I got the options confused in my head. It is #1 BUT the option 3 is the fact that technically 得 doesn't get modified because it is the modifier.

Also, I have never heard of 个 replacing 得.

[flippant]

The "de"'s (的,地,得) are all used differently. Sometimes very differently, sometimes not.

The first one (的) is very flexible. It can denote ownership or connection (我的苹果; 说的人), as well as ending the 是...的-construction that elaborates on the manner in which a past event was accomplished (awkwardly formulated, but you get the point). In the above examples, the words to the left modify the words to the right of the "de" (the 苹果 & 人). Being mine and being of the speaking type are properties given to the objects.

The second one (地) is used to describe the manner with which an action is performed as a descriptor. "She ran happily" or "She had a happy (way of) running" is 她高兴地跑. Here, the word to the left modifies the word to the right of the "de" (the action of 跑).

The third one (得) here speaks to the manner or degree in which an action is performed as a comment on the action itself. E.g "he spoke quickly" is 他说得很快. Here, the word to the right modifies the word to the left of the "de" (the 说). It can also be used to form potential (拿得动: be able to lift something & 听得懂: to be able to understand what you hear) and "directional-resultative" compliments (插得进去 - be -able- to plug something in).

Caveat: Chinese grammar is difficult, and I'm probably wrong or at the very least missing vital points here, but I'm trying to help ;)

[gougou]

Also, I have never heard of 个 replacing 得.

Clearly, you haven't paid attention: An overlooked construction: complements with 个

说个没完没了, which was the first example that came to my head, actually has more results on Google than the 得 counterpart.