how does the third tone change??!!!

[Alveranter]

What about this mysterious third tone? I do grasp that when two third tones occur together the first one becomes a second tone. And I thought I was quite certain about the rest as well until I bought an additional book to supplement my studies. OK here it goes: My first book says: " If three third tones occur together, the first two are normally said as second tones: Wo3 ye3 hao3 is said Wo2 ye2 hao3." But now I am quite confused.. my second book says: "When three third tones occur one after another and they are in the same meaning group, the SECOND one changes to the second tone whilst the other two remain the third tone. For example: Wo3 hen3 hao3 in actiul speech should be pronounced Wo3 hen2 hao3. if this isn't confusing then what is??? And one more thing that neither book deals with: What if let's say 4 or 5 third tones occur together.. which tones are pronounced like the second tone? One book also says that if two third tones occur togheter but dont belong to the same meaning group for example: ni3 neng2 bu neng2 gao4su wo3 | ni3de dian4hua4 hao4ma3, both tones remain 3 tones.. that makes sense to me but.. please help me.. this is really annoying.

/Anton

[Yuchi]

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

All pronounciations stays constant unless emphasized?

[Claw]

He's asking about the tone sandhi phenomenon that happens when two or more third tone morphemes occur in a row. I remember someone on this forum wrote a really good explanation of it, but I can't seem to find it anymore. I'll post it if I happen to find it again.

[Claw]

Actually I think I was imagining things... I may have I read something somewhere else and thought it was posted on this forum. Anyway, I did find this link:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/chinese/aspect/tonesandhi.html

Unfortunately, it doesn't really give any rules regarding the tone sandhi. I think how the tones are designated depends on the speaker.

[Alveranter]

but what would you say? would you say "Ni2 hen2 hao3" or "Ni3 hen2 hao3"

and when saying long sentences would you prefer: "Lao2 Li2 mai2 hao2" jiu3" to just trying to avoid 2 third tones to occur together like for instance: Lao2 Li3 mai2 hao2 jiu3"?

[shibo77]

All of your textbooks are correct.

This is the explanation given to students of Chinese.

A third tone has the tone contour 214 in Beijing Guan (Mandarin).

A second tone has the tone contour 35 in Beijing Guan (Mandarin).

When preceded by another or several 3rd tone (214) in the same "word group", the final character of the "word group" changes to the second tone.

<1> 老李买好酒. Lao3 Li3 mai3 hao3 jiu3. (character-by-character tones)

<2> (老李)(买)(好酒). (Lao3 Li3) (mai3) (hao3 jiu3). (separate the "word groups")

<3> (老李)(买)(好酒). (Lao2 Li3) (mai3) (hao2 jiu3). (tone change on the last character of each "word group".)

<4> 老李买好酒. Lao2 Li3 mai3 hao2 jiu3.

老李买好酒.

Lao3 Li3 mai3 hao3 jiu3. >> Lao2 Li3 mai3 hao2 jiu3.

Basically:

(2+2+2+2+.....+3) Within the "word group", if there is a chain of third tone characters, all of it changes into a second tone, except the last within the "word group".

(35+35+35+214)

-Shibo

[Alveranter]

I am awfully sorry.. shibo.. but that last reply just made me confused.. whether that is because of the complexity of chinese intonation or my lack of sagacity is for you to conclude.. although some uncertainties remain.. I think I will make it out somehow..

[Quest]

Alveranter, you need to understand what a meaning group is.

For example: 我很好。

So, how many groups are there?

Can "我很" form a meaning group? no, because "I am very" is not complete.

Can "很好 form a meaning group? yes, it means "very good".

So we can break 我很好 into 我+很好 -- two meaning groups, and apply the 3 3 -> 2 3 rule to each individual group.

Now since 我 is alone by itself, it remains in the 3rd tone.

很好 becomes hen2 hao3.

So why is 我也好 2 2 3?

because 也好 "also good" is not complete. Who is or what is also good?

So we cannot break this one. The whole thing 我也好 forms a single meaning group. In such cases, only the last character in the group takes the 3rd tone.

I hope this helps.

PS: It's just an explanation. of course, native speakers do not break them into groups when they speak; the tones come out naturally. Speak more and you will get the feel for it.

[Alveranter]

Yes, actually it did help a lot.. thank you very much.. The coming semester, I will probably join a chinsese class to improve my understanding of the language.. I will hopefully get the feeling for speaking more fluently..

[Alveranter]

by the way.. so 我也很好 wo3 ye3 hen3 hao3.. would be..

2+2+2+3 since 也很好 is not complete.. I think I get it..

[Quest]

actually in this case it should be 2 3 2 3.

The problem is: 很好 is a group 2 3, so 我 and 也 become isolated.

Since 很 is 2, 也 in this case can take its original 3rd tone, and since 我 precedes 也3, it changes into the second tone.

Usually, 我也 is 2 3, you can remember that.

So, another way to interpret 我也好 is that 好 is a group taking the 3rd tone. So 也 in 我也23 changes to 2, since there cannot be two 3rd tones together.

[Alveranter]

老李买好酒.

Lao3 Li3 mai3 hao3 jiu3. >> Lao2 Li3 mai3 hao2 jiu3

So, another way to interpret 我也好 is that 好 is a group taking the 3rd tone. So 也 in 我也23 changes to 2, since there cannot be two 3rd tones together.

But if that is the case, in the first sentence above, the word groups being (lao3 li3) (mai3) (hao3 jiu3) - (lao2 li3) (mai3) (hao2 jiu3) there's a clash between two third tones..(although they's not in the same meaning group) shouldn't it then be "Lao2 Li3 mai2 hao2 jiu3" "2+3+2+2+3"??

[Quest]

老李买好酒 could be 2 2 3 2 3.

[Alveranter]

(老李)(买)(好酒)

could it be either 2 2 3 2 3 or 2 3 2 2 3 or 2 3 3 2 3?

[Altair]

As a student of Chinese, I have long pondered this issue. It is a much more troublesome question than might appear to native or near native speakers who know instinctively how to handle it.

I think one of the problems is that almost all textbooks and grammar books try to simplify what is an extraordinarily complex issue. They act as if a solution can be obtained by merely applying some sort of tone formula to a sentence.

As Shibo and Quest have pointed out, tone sandhi is not merely dependent on lexical tone, but also on issues of meaning and phrasing. Lexical tone is altered by phrase and sentence intonation, as well.

Another issue is that Mandarin has at least one other rule of tone sandhi that can apply to third tones in sequence. If the last three tones in a phrase consist of a first or second tone, followed by a second tone, which is in turn followed by any tone, the middle tone (originally a second tone) can be pronounced as a first tone. This rule can apply even if this second tone was originally a third tone.

Another issue is that stress plays a major role in Mandarin at the level of phrasing. This is true even though native speakers have no sense of lexical stress at all or of stress in isolated words. Unstressed syllables have reduced tones. Without knowing the stress and rhythm rules, intuitively or expressly, it is hard to reproduce tones accurately and authentically.

Bad grammar books mention only that Mandarin has a third tone. Simple grammar books mention that this third tone becomes a second tone when followed by another third tone. Average to good grammar books and reference works mention that third tones become “half-third tones” before any full tone other than another third tone. Excellent grammar books mention the tone sandhi rule that affects third tones converted into second tones. Only linguistic papers and very scholarly works mention issues of stress and rhythm and describe a greater variety of third tone realizations.

Some insight can be gained by looking at the following information Shibo posted on one of the threads on the Non-Mandarin Chinese Forum. This excerpt concerns how to pronounce the phrase: 李小宝九点写讲演稿 (Li Xiaobao jiudian xie jiangyan gao), which consists completely of third tones.

The low tone becomes a little messy and has tone sandhi, but the five point scale can still help you find the proper tones for the individual syllables in the sentence:

214+214+214+214+214+214+214+214+214 changes to ????

李小宝九点写讲演稿。

Obviously the 35+35+35+214 proposed by Chao Yuanren is incorrect.

It's more like (45+55+21)+(35+212)+(21)+(24+45+21). The pitch would be (HHL)(HL)(L)(HHL)

(....) <<circles off words.

Talking of relative pitch, Mandarin have relative pitch just as Shanghainese or Japanese.

讲演稿 Jiang-yan-gao HHL perhaps 升升降 24+45+21.

one can't just mark these 45, 212, 24, 21 as new tones. Some sat 21 is called "partial third". They are merely representations from High and Low pitches.

How the third tone character is pronounced in a sentence is determined more by the relative pitch of the previous syllables(HHL) than merely what citation tone the previous syllable is(35+35+35+214).

In this way, Mandarin's 上声 is not much different than the relative pitch of Shanghainese, when it only exists (as 214) as 单字调character tonal pronunciation. Otherwise in daily speech, the tone 上声 doesn't really have a standing in 声调tones, but more in 语调intonations.

The details of this post mostly concern a bunch of scholarly points that are not directly relevant to the issue at hand, such as the contrast between “high” and “low” tones; nevertheless, one can see from the chart that there are about five instances of the third tone that do not fit easily within the notion of three varieties of third tones (full dipping tones, half third tones, and converted second tones). This is how I understant Shibo’s reference to Chao’s oft quoted rule.

One can also clearly see that the tonal expression of this sequence of third tones results in three or four phrase patterns, each of which ends in half-third ones or dipping tones. Only one of the nine tones (the jiu3 of jiu3 dian3) has the classic second-tone shape, perhaps because it has both phrase-initial stress and sentence stress.

I have other probably worthless theories about why each of these third tones takes its particular shape, but I think the general story is pretty clear: third tones come in many varieties, depending on phrasing. Above all these concerns reign whatever thoughts actually go through the minds of a speaker as he or she forms thoughts and begins to utter them. Speakers have choices about how they phrase and emphasize words that will affect how tones are actually realized.

As an aside, both English and Swedish have complex rules like this. (From your location, I presume you speak Swedish or are familiar with it). These rules are not widely discussed in grammar books or are often inaccurately described. For instance, in English, word stress is greatly affected by the meaning of phrases. Phrases or words like “townhouse” and “town hall” display different stress, because the underlying grammatical meaning is different. In Swedish, there are words that appear to have the same surface structure, but which receive different intonation. For instance, if I recall correctly, “anden” can be pronounced with two different intonations, depending on whether one is talking about “spirits” or “ducks.” “Jag kommer” and “jag talar” are pronounced with almost the same stress pattern, but with different intonation patterns not overtly expressed in the spelling. (“Er” has an unstressed low pitch; whereas “ar” has a weakly stressed high falling pitch.)

Native speakers are often unaware of these niceties, even though they instinctively make the distinctions. Since these points of pronunciation rarely obscure communication, grammar books usually ignore them, letting language learners get the hang of it through extensive exposure to live language usage.

I hope this helps more than it confuses.

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[shibo77]

There can be two third tones together. But usually not in the same "word group"

老李买好酒.

Lao3 Li3 mai3 hao3 jiu3. >> Lao2 Li3 mai3 hao2 jiu3.

This is the only possible case for simply a statement.

It cannot be 老梨买好酒.Lao2 Li2 mai3 hao2 jiu3.

It cannot be 老李埋好酒Lao2 Li3 mai2 hao2 jiu3.

老李买好酒. would be Lao2 Li3 mai3 hao3 jiu3. if the speaker is emphasising the good quality of the alcohol.

老李买好酒. would be Lao3 Li3 mai3 hao2 jiu3. if the speaker is emphasising the subject who bought/buys the alcohol. (opposed to 小李...Xiao3 Li3...)

If you are a native speaker, and you are in doubt, try fitting in another character (梨li2 for 李li3; 埋mai2 for 买mai3), and see if it rimes well.

-Shibo

[Quest]

I think you keep confusing him further, shibo

I m trying to find an online text that explains this issue, but with no luck so far. Maybe someone can post a link?

[shibo77]

I am not good at this explaining job...

-Shibo

[Alveranter]

Well there just doesn't seem to be an easy solution to this "problem", which might explain why trying to elucidate the issue proved tougher than I could ever imagine. Thanks a lot anyway shibo and the rest of you.. all your efforts are of great value to me, regardless if I understand or not..

Should you come up with or find a more plain explanation tough, I'd be even more grateful..

And Altair, you are quite well versed in swedish.. =)

[HashiriKata]

Alveranter,

Here is my summing up of what has been discussed and I hope you'll find it is of some help:

- The first (basic) rule: when 2 third tones occur together, the first third tone NORMALLY change to the second tone:

hen3 hao3 => hen2 hao3

- The second (supplementary) rule: when the 1st rule doesn't apply (ie. there are more than 2 third tones in succession), apply the "meaning group" rule:

Wo3 hen3 hao3 => Wo3 hen2 hao3

Wo3 ye3 hao3 => Wo2 ye2 hao3

- The third (final) rule: when the second rule can't be readily/ easily applied (ie. which words should hang together as a meaning group), try inserting hesitation pauses (or breaks) into the phrase. Wherever a hesitation pause can be insert WITHOUT SOUNDING UNNATURAL, that place can be regarded as the beginning of a new "meaning group":

Wo3 ye3 hen3 hao3 => Wo2 ye3 / hen2 hao3

Lao3 Li3 mai3 hao3 jiu3 => Lao2 Li3 / mai3 / hao2 jiu3 (or Lao2 Li2 mai3 / hao2 jiu3)

Li3 Xiao3 bao3 jiu3 dian3 xie3 jiang3 yan3 gao3 =>Li2 Xiao2 bao3 / jiu2 dian3 / xie3 / jiang2 yan2 gao3

It's the third (last) rule that explains the variations among native speakers.

HK