離 - Li. What Does This Mean?

[shida]

In the Yijing (Book of Changes), chapter 30 is called 'li' and written 離. Generally, in translations, this ideogram is translated variously as 'clinging', 'allegence' and 'brightness'. Scholars however, have suggested that in its bronze age meaning, it may have simply referred to 'zhui', or 'bird'.

The hexagram referrred to here, is the trigram the 'sun', doubled, hence many go with the 'brightness' interpretation from the actual hexagram. However, I would appreciate any thoughts regarding the ideogram itself.

Thank you

[jetter]

i think some old book in china can not be translated

[imron]

See here.

[shida]

Dear imron

Thank you for your reply, and very interesting link, which I have just visited and printed-out.

The ideogram contains the bird (zhui), on the right, and a particle on the left, which I am not sure how to translate. Someone suggested animal foot prints, but I a wondering whether the left particle has anything to do with the 'sun' and 'moon'? As the chapter in question uses this imagery to convey the concept of being both 'firm', and 'correct'.

Two Western scholars, (Marshall and Rutt) are of the opinion that in ancient China, Li referred only to a 'zhui', or small bird. They also think that the second line refers to a 'yellow' bird. I assume that they have stripped away the later layers of Yijing interpretation, to arrive at what they think is an earlier version. My point here, is that if both the left and right hand particle was present in the early Yijing, making-up the Li ideogram, how could it only mean 'zhui', or 'bird'?

Thank you

[shida]

Dear Jetter

Thank you for your reply. I agree that it can be very difficult to translate ancient concepts, into understandable modern ideas. And even more of a challenge to translate ancient concepts from one language, into another. However, I think that with patience and a gentle understanding, a little of the wisdom can be conveyed.

Thank you

[imron]

Shuowen Jiezi mentions that 離 is some kind of yellow bird (probably this one) that from what I can work out (my classical Chinese is not much good so perhaps someone else can help) heralds the coming of spring.

离 is the phonetic component and 隹 is the semantic part. My dictionary mentions that in the context of trigrams, 離 represents fire.

I should also add that in modern Chinese, 離 means leave, go away.

[fengyixiao]

Because my poor english, I write what i think in chinese. Sorry.

1、离

See the link：http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE7ZdicA6ZdicBB.htm

卷十四】【禸部】离

山神，獸也。从禽頭，从厹从屮。歐陽喬說：离，猛獸也。呂支切〖注〗臣鉉等曰：从屮，義無所取，疑象形。〖注〗

离，在甲骨文中，是一副画，画的是一个“猛兽fierce beast”的形象。如果你了解了这个来源，就很容易理解这个字的现代意义：离开leave，分离apart。

想一想，你要看到了一头猛兽，比如老虎、狮子之类的，你会怎么做？本能反应，当然是“跑啊，离得越远越好！”于是，演变到后来，就有‘离’的引申意义：“分离、离开、远离”等等。

2、 離

離是 ‘离’+‘隹’，‘离’这里是‘声旁’，‘隹’是‘形旁’，表示与鸟有关。See this link:http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE9Zdic9BZdicA2.htm

因此，離的本意就是一种鸟的名字，这种鸟就是”黄鹂“，離和鹂读音相同。

3、为什么‘離’在《易经》中有'clinging', 'allegence' and 'brightness'的意义？

Also see the link：http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE9Zdic9BZdicA2.htm

里面有一个注释：黃倉庚也。鳴則蠶生。从隹离聲。呂支切。

翻译成现代汉语：”離就是黄鹂，黄鹂鸣叫，虫子复苏。从隹离聲。呂支切“

想象一下：黄鹂鸣叫，意味着什么？当然是”春天来了“。

春天来了，太阳升得高了，气温升高，天空变得”明亮brightness“起来。

小草开始”顽强、执着clinging“从泥土中钻出来，小虫子们也开始”顽强、执着clinging“地从虫卵中破壳而成，慢慢长大。

‘allegence’这个词我不认识，也没查到。

于是，从‘離’字引申出”明亮、执着“之意。

所以，要深刻理解一个汉字，需要知道这个字的原始”图形“和原始意义，即‘本意’，然后要善于”联想、想象“，最后，你就能恍然大悟，领会其中的内涵。

Edited September 15, 2009 at 10:16 AM by fengyixiao

[fengyixiao]

Another example,consider the word ‘万’

See the link:http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE4ZdicB8Zdic87.htm

【卷十四】【禸部】

蟲也。从厹，象形。無販切〖注〗古文。或省作万。

The original ‘picture’ of ‘万’ is a scorpion which is a litter sect.

When our ancestors saw a lot of,countless scorpion gathered together，they are shocked!

So the word ‘万’ has a meaning:"many;much;a great deal of;a lot of;numerous".

Then they give the word '万'the meaning "the biggist number in the acient times",it is 'ten thousauds'.

So,if you want understand a 汉字，you should think and imagine,like our ancestors.

[imron]

如果你了解了这个来源，就很容易理解这个字的现代意义：离开leave

Are you sure this is the case though? As I understand, in traditional Chinese characters, which were in use for almost two thousand years before simplification efforts in the 1950's (and which are still in use today in Hong Kong and Taiwan), 离 (leave) is written as 離.

[fengyixiao]

http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE7ZdicA6ZdicBB.htm

see the above link.

离 has its basic 'picture'.

繁体字并不就是最接近原始字形的字。

比如'洲'，本意是‘州’,但后来为了区分行政区域，用‘洲’表示‘州’的本意，而‘州’表示行政区划。

離也是一样，离+隹，是一种鸟的名字，黄鹂，古代”通假、假借“的字很多，離反而取代了‘离’。

简化后的‘离’才跟本意有更多的关联。

离-猛兽-逃跑

万-虫子-密密麻麻-很多-最大的数字

[imron]

離也是一样，离+隹，是一种鸟的名字，黄鹂，古代”通假、假借“的字很多，離反而取代了‘离’。

简化后的‘离’才跟本意有更多的关联。

Ah, but that's where it gets interesting. When looking for etymology references for this character, I've seen other pages mention that the meaning of 'leave' comes because when you get near a bird, it would fly away or leave. So which one is correct? Which one 跟本义有更多的关联？I don't know, nor am I qualified to answer that, but I do know the answer isn't as simple as trying to "think how ancestors think", because it's very easy to jump to the wrong conclusions.

It would be interesting to hear from native speakers who have grown up with Traditional characters what their thoughts are.

[shida]

Thank you both for your excellent scholarshp in this mater.

One point I can add here, is that it is beleived that the trigram section of the Yijing was a later development, and that therefore, the viewing of the hexagrams through their constituent trrigrams, was not present in the earliest versions of the Zhouyi (Yijing).

This could mean, that the 'doubled brightness' of the Li hexagram is a later interpretation, and that originally Li referred to something else. I assume that is why certain scholars (both East and West) feel 'Yellow Bird' (Zhui) is the earlier meaning - but is it?

It might be, if the 'coming of spring', also means the 'coming of light', the meaning could have shifted from an implied 'approach of spring', through the increased activity of birds, to the change in the presence of light (i.e. more sun per day) and all the hope that brings.

Thank you

[shida]

Having said that, the traditional view is that the trigrams were invented by the legendary leader Fu Xi, many thousands of years ago, and that the trigrams (bagua) pre-date the hexagrams.

If this is correct, then it might mean that the hexagram Li has always meant 'bright', with an associated concept of 'yellow bird'.

Whether modern or traditional, I appreciate all of your help.

Thank you

[shida]

Quote from imrom;

'Shuowen Jiezi mentions that 離 is some kind of yellow bird (probably this one) that from what I can work out (my classical Chinese is not much good so perhaps someone else can help) heralds the coming of spring.

离 is the phonetic component and 隹 is the semantic part. My dictionary mentions that in the context of trigrams, 離 represents fire.

I should also add that in modern Chinese, 離 means leave, go away.'

I am not sure how this fits in, but someone mentioned to me that 離 can refer to lovers split apart. And yet the hexagram Li refers to things 'clinging' to their proper places. Perhaps it means that with proper positioning, there is no separation?

Thank you

[shida]

Quote from fengyixiao;

'离 has its basic 'picture'.

繁体字并不就是最接近原始字形的字。

比如'洲'，本意是‘州’,但后来为了区分行政区域，用‘洲’表示‘州’的本意，而‘州’表示行政区划。

離也是一样，离+隹，是一种鸟的名字，黄鹂，古代”通假、假借“的字很多，離反而取代了‘离’。

简化后的‘离’才跟本意有更多的关联。

离-猛兽-逃跑

万-虫子-密密麻麻-很多-最大的数字 '

Thank you for this. My translater used the name 'Oriole' to refer to the yellow bird mentioned in the Chinese text. The author Rutt uses this term 'Oriole', but makes no other explanation as to what it might mean. If a 'yellow bird' was how the ancient Chinese conceived 'Li' (離), then it surely would have been associated with the coming of spring, and the brightness that this time of year entails. In-short, 'yellow bird' would have meant 'spring', and this has come down to us as the brightness of the sun, or simply 'fire'. In English then, 'brightness' is probably the more correct rendering of 'Li', rather than just 'Oriole', as the average English reader, with little or no understanding of the Yijing, might think that Li refers solely to a short-tailed, yellow bird, and nothing else.

Quoted by imron;

'I should also add that in modern Chinese, 離 means leave, go away.''

I have heard that in some renderings of Yijing commentary - a fire only burns when there is appropriate fuel, or when the fire 'clings' to the right fuel. When the fuel ends, the fire goes out, and the light leaves.

Thank you

[fengyixiao]

quote:

" I've seen other pages mention that the meaning of 'leave' comes because when you get near a bird, it would fly away or leave."

我以为，古人造字，应该遵循一个原则，就是“‘我’看见了某种事物，‘我’心里怎么想，‘我’要怎么做”，而非“‘被看到的东西’怎么想，‘被看到的东西’”怎么做。

比如，以‘推’和‘離’字为离。

1、首先说‘推’字

a、一个人作出挥手的动作，在这个人来讲，他是要“驱赶、驱逐”吃他谷物的“小鸟”，所以 ‘手’+‘隹’，说文解字里解释‘推’字说：“排也。从手隹聲。他回切”。‘排’，最常见的词组是‘排斥’，跟“驱赶、驱逐”意义一致。

b、如果‘小鸟’有智能，那么它看见一个人挥手，想要来捉它，它本能的直觉就应该是‘感到害怕，赶紧逃跑’，所以，如果是一只‘小鸟’造字，

它说不定会把这个‘手’+‘隹’定义成：“逃跑，离开”，就如一个人见到一头猛兽比如‘离’的情况。

2、‘離’

说文解字里的解释简短清晰：“黃倉庚也。鳴則蠶生。从隹离聲。呂支切”

‘苍庚’指‘黄莺’，所以，这个解释翻译成现代汉语就是：“離，就是黄鹂鸟，隹是形旁，离是声旁。”基本解释里，并没有”离开、分离、远离“等的含义。

‘離’‘鹂’同音同义，而且‘鹂’字的声旁‘丽’更能体现‘黄鹂’是一种‘美丽的鸟’，并逐渐取代了’離‘，而’離‘则取代了’离‘，专指’离开、分离、离别‘等。

‘离’本身就是一个字，它的原型是”一头凶猛的野兽“，see:http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE7ZdicA6ZdicBB.htm。

除了‘離’字，还有‘螭’‘缡’‘魑’，都以‘离’为声旁。

为什么’我认为’简化后的‘离’更接近古人造字的思想呢？因为‘万’字的演变。‘万’字本意是‘小蝎子、小毒虫’，因为‘小毒虫’密密麻麻挤在一起，不计其数，所以古人最后用这个‘万’来来表示‘数目很大、很多’，并把它指定为古人所能想到的'最大的数字’。

那么‘离’字也是一样，古人看到‘许许多多’小虫子，想到‘很大的数字’，那么古人看到‘一头凶猛的野兽’，心里会怎么想呢？本能当然是‘逃，跑，离开’，这就是‘离’字本意的引申义。因此，我认为，简化后的’离‘字，更符合古人造字的思想。

再回来说‘離’，如果‘我’是‘一个人’，‘我’看到一只小鸟，如果是在古代，生活条件艰苦，我会琢磨”抓住这只小鸟，把它吃了填肚子“而不是”逃跑、离开“。

当然了，如果是‘一只有智能的小鸟’要造字，也许“the meaning of 'leave' comes because when you get near a bird, it would fly away or leave” is reasonbal.

所以，是否合理，要看是否站在’造字者‘的角度来思考，而不是站在'被观察者'的角度

BTW，this is my theory,which theory is reasonale,believe what you want believe.

Edited September 15, 2009 at 04:23 PM by fengyixiao

[imron]

If a 'yellow bird' was how the ancient Chinese conceived 'Li' (離), then it surely would have been associated with the coming of spring, and the brightness that this time of year entails. In-short, 'yellow bird' would have meant 'spring', and this has come down to us as the brightness of the sun, or simply 'fire'. In English then, 'brightness' is probably the more correct rendering of 'Li', rather than just 'Oriole', as the average English reader, with little or no understanding of the Yijing, might think that Li refers solely to a short-tailed, yellow bird, and nothing else.

Sorry, but I think you're starting with a conclusion that you want (i.e. brightness is the best English translation for Li in this context), and then working back to figure out a hypothesis that supports it. I don't have the understanding of the Yijing, Chinese etymology or classical Chinese to suggest a different hypothesis, and nor would I try. I would however tend to put more faith in simpler explanations rather than complicated ones. Oriole -> the first bird to start singing in spring -> spring -> coming of light -> sun -> fire seems a bit long winded to me.

“‘我’看见了某种事物，‘我’心里怎么想，‘我’要怎么做”

Fair enough, except there are also plenty of characters that don't follow this logic.