Intensive mandarin course - forming a group (Shanghai)

[imron]

but you still think that ones pure retention ability based on brain power

No I don't. I think it comes down to how much time you invest in learning a word and ensuring that you refresh that memory at various intervals as time goes on until it is firmly ensconsed in long-term memory. The problem is, the amount of time you have on any given day is limited and needs to be shared among the words you are learning and revising, so you need to ensure that you are spending enough time to learn/revise those words effectively. I believe that quality is more important than quantity.

The learning/revising can be done in many different ways including regular reading, listening and speaking. Actually if you really get down to it, I think that memorising words outside of context is next to useless for actually "learning" the word and being able to use it correctly, which is why I try to structure my learning around native materials as much as possible. I also think that measuring progress by "words per day" is a pretty useless metric. It's no good learning 20 words a day if you can't understand half of them when spoken at native speed, and if you want to pass the top grade of HSK without any trouble, you will also need to invest a lot of time in skills beyond just memorising vocabulary.

[Scoobyqueen]

You might want to prepare yourself for disappointment as you wont get grade 11 within a year judging from your current level.

[gato]

Don't be so negatives, guys/gals. Let's see how johndones does in six months.

[johndones]

No I don't. I think it comes down to how much time you invest in learning a word and ensuring that you refresh that memory at various intervals as time goes on until it is firmly ensconsed in long-term memory. The problem is, the amount of time you have on any given day is limited and needs to be shared among the words you are learning and revising, so you need to ensure that you are spending enough time to learn/revise those words effectively. I believe that quality is more important than quantity.

In the quotation you put " but you still think that ones pure retention ability based on brain power ", but the actual sentence had 2 more words at the end - "remains constant" that I think you might have not read, so I'm not sure what "No I don't" exactly refers to, which is quiet important :-).

[animal world]

I've lived in a number of countries after knowing and studying their language for years already. After one year residence and studying hard, my command of that language was very good but not "fluent," as in HSK Advanced. Still, i would rate my ability much better than average. Imho, it is impossible to be truly at an "advanced" level in any language after so short a time. People, particularly the anonymous crowd on the internet, toss the words fluent and advanced around a little too easily.

You may know lots of words in Chinese but you have to do a lot of reading to recognize them as such when you see strings of characters on a page. Characters and words are building blocks of a language. To turn them into a house requires an architect and not a bricklayer, i.e thorough knowledge to end up with a handsome, solid structure instead of a shack at risk of collapse.

I would lose all respect for the HSK if anyone can pass the advanced level after one year of studying Chinese.

Let me finish this post with a question to the OP: are you a native English speaker and, if so, how would you rate your command of your mother tongue?

[imron]

You're right, I did misread that (it was late, and there was a loong bracketed clause in between), but the answer is still no I don't. Have a read of this post of mine here from a few months back regarding learning characters. You'll note it talks quite clearly about developing techniques to improve the speed with which one can memorise and learn a character after a period of intensive training. Read the other posts I linked to above and you'll also see that I'm a big fan of intensive training and in developing techniques to improve the speed with which one can learn Chinese.

Increasing word limits is not one of those things however, because those other intensive things (which do work, at least for me) require a reasonable time investment per word. If you increase the words, then the amount of time you can spend per word is decreased.

[johndones]

animal world - it all depends on how you understand fluency, I'm not a native enhglish speaker, and I don't know if you would consider me fluent.

I never have trouble understanding something that I would in my native language.

My accent in english is close to standard American, but if I want to sound almost American I still have to focus a little, but that's something caused by the fact that I developed a habit of talking in different accents to different people (hard to explain my reasons for that), so I don't have a one way of talking in english that I use regardless of circumstances.

As you can see my writing skills are not expectional, but neither are they in my native language, I have never took any writing classes in my life, so my writing experience is limited to some middle-school homework that I never cared about and using IM applications.

There's a lot that I could do both about my native languge and english, but currently there's simply no incentive for me to do it.

I still get to learn a new word in english or my native languege from time to time as I guess we all do.

I don't know what you understand by fluency, but for me it's not necessary to be fluent to pass HSK, as many other rigorous english tests. Fluency is a matter too subjective to be simply decided by a test, so for me a test can only test proficiency, which is interrelated with fluency, but it doesn't mean one has to be fluent in order to achieve very high proficiency.

For some high proficiency comes first, for some it's the fluency, but most people that have high fluency and low proficiency are uneducated native speakers or immigrants.

Few years I ago I could easily read a Rothbard's book on the economy in english, but if I had to discuss it there was no way I would have done it in a fluid manner, despite the fact that I could perfectly understand what was being said.

So was I fluid? No. Did I understand high level material? Yes.

And this is what I want to achieve with my chinese, fluency will come later just like it did with english.

Of course you'll want to ask how I learnt english, but to disappoint you I wasn't by cramming. It took me around 6-7 years to undersand high level material (both spoken and written), and 1 more to develop something that I'd call fluency, but at time of learning english I didn't care about it at all, I just let it sink in, without any concentrated effort.

So I cannot use my english learning methods to help my chinese studies, because they don't exist :-)

I've lived in a number of countries after knowing and studying their language for years already. After one year residence and studying hard, my command of that language was very good but not "fluent," as in HSK Advanced. Still, i would rate my ability much better than average. Imho, it is impossible to be truly at an "advanced" level in any language after so short a time

Better than average native speaker or language student?

And how intensive was it during that one year and how slow was it during the 3 other years?

imron - I just read your post and the 3 others that you gave links for before. So now I have a good understanding of your technique, but I still can't understand one thing.

You say -

[You'll note it talks quite clearly about developing techniques to improve the speed with which one can memorise and learn a character after a period of intensive training./quote]

I think I must be misunderstading something big time, but doesn't it mean that if one improves his speed, the time needed to memorize is therfore reduced, so that he could stuff in more in the same timeframe?

[Neil_H]

Maybe the OP can clarify for me, but how does learning x amount of characters or words a day allow you to speak Chinese properly? Won't that just make you into a human dictionary?

How do you know when to use the correct words and in the right order? How can you learn to pronounce the tones?

How do you know how to put a load of words together to form a sentance or have you already learnt all this?

I recently decided to stop adding so many new words so I could concentrate on speech, grammar, properly understanding the differences of using words in the right situation.

Thanks

Neil

[johndones]

Haha, don't worry, I didn't start learning chinese by cramming in vocabulary that I don't know how to use .

I did learn a lot about grammar before starting the cram and still learning in my university classes that I attend and cramming words is something that I do besides those classes, I also like to watch tv in chinese and try to read from time to time.

[animal world]

I shouldn't have equated the advanced HSK level with fluency and agree that fluency is somewhat of a subjective term. What i know about the HSK advanced level--mainly from reading posts at this forum--is that the people who pass the exam have been studying Chinese seriously as well as living in China for a numbers of years, and increased their studying even more in preparation for the exam. Their achievement is deserving of admiration.

Therefore, i don't believe it can be done with one year of cramming, the more so since at this point you know just 2,000 words (at least that's what you said in the very first paragraph of your opening post in this thread). Actually, i don't believe one can expect to pass a highly-regarded advanced exam in any foreign language after one year of cramming, certainly not in Chinese. Cramming gains you knowledge that might stick in your mind until the end of the test, if you're lucky. After that, the knowledge quickly turns to mush. I rather study for the long haul and not to just get a piece of paper.

In answer to your question, i had learned fairly rigorously the language of the countries where i eventually ended up living for at least five years. I like to study seriously but never cram as this seems counter-productive to me. I rated my ability "better than average" compared to other foreign students. My English, however, is better than the average American. I don't mean to sound arrogant but I have been in the US for a good while and many people here apparently don't find it important to master their own language.

In any case, I wish you good luck with the Advanced Level exam.

Edited October 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM by animal world

[imron]

but doesn't it mean that if one improves his speed, the time needed to memorize is therfore reduced, so that he could stuff in more in the same timeframe?

Yes and no. The important difference is that this growth comes naturally as your ability increases rather than just arbitrarily setting it too high early on and setting it above your ability to learn each word effectively. For example, between any two days you will probably find that your ability to cope with a given number of words is similar. The same will not be true if you compare the difference between the start and end of say a 6-month period. If you increase that limit before you can handle it, it will in my opinion do more harm than good.

Also the extra time you get doesn't mean you spend it on cramming more words in, you use it on developing other aspects of your Chinese. Personally, I don't think that vocabulary acquisition should drive the learning process, but rather should come through other activities that you are doing. Here is an example you can try to see why.

Visit this page to see a news transcript in Chinese, with accompanying audio. Without listening to that audio, try reading the news transcript and learning any words you don't know up to some limit (10 new words, 20 new words etc). Once you have learnt those words using your current techniques, then download and listen to the audio for the part you have learnt. Can you understand the words you have learnt (and the the other words in the article), and if not, have you really learnt them?

The reason I bring this up, is because if you want to get the top score on the HSK, you will need to be able to understand stuff at this speed. The same goes for reading (the Advanced HSK requires a reading speed of 250 chars per minute just to be able to read everything on the exam). If you are only focused on vocabulary acquisition then when you come to take the HSK you will get a rude surprise.

My main learning philosophy is to train the aspect that you want to improve. If you want to improve listening, train your listening. If you want to improve reading, train your reading. Vocabulary acquisition will then come as a side effect of these actions.

As you improve your speed, the extra time you gain can then be spent doing more of these activities, it also means you have more time to do reading/listening/speaking revision with the words you know. This is especially important as the number of words you know increases, because as this number increases, the frequency of those words in general usage decreases and therefore you need to be doing extra work to keep those words in memory.

[johndones]

animal word - I think I said it already, but I'll repeat - cramming words is not the only thing that I do, I also expose myself to native material a lot.

Cramming words is the only thing that I put focused effort into (meaning that I don't try to learn vocab in listening excercises etc).

As for the number of words I know it should be over 3000 now.

imron - Ok, now I understand how you want to manage time.

You pointed out that one would have to read to develop reading skills, listen to develop listening skills and speak to imrpove speaking.

That another aspect where we'll have a big disagreement.

I like to develop a language only by training reading and the rest will work out itself, that's how I basically developed my english (of course I had to do some other stuff in my classes, but I wasn't learning much english there anyways, most was thanks to my reading). Before going to the USA for a short period of time, I almost never used SPOKEN english outside of classroom, well guess what? I had virtually no problems to speak almost fluent english (and after some time I'd say it was fluent) and even more my accent was very close to standard American.

I think practicising to speak is almost useless and the only thing it can do is develop some very bad habits.

Of course from time to time I'll pronounce a word in Chinese, but I don't talk to people in Chinese if I don't have to.

When I was learning english the fact that I wasn't practicing speaking wasn't a part of my learning philosophy, I was just shy about making even a slightest mistake, I always wanted to sound good.

But now that I thought about it, I'll try to follow it in learning chinese too, I'm not sure if it has negative impact, but I'm sure I don't have to do it in order do develop speaking.

Now as for training listening. I think it's more important than speaking, but it's also something that I won't focus on, and I just limit it to casually watching TV and whatever they force me to do in class, that 80% of the time is too easy anyways

.

Reading is the only thing where I do some focused effort by putting the new words into my word lists and then cramming it in ;-).

Just so that you don't get it wrong, in my mind I pronounce what I read, when I learn a new word a pronounce it in my mind a lot too, but never aloud, just seems useless and funny to me.

As for the challange you gave me - I can do it, but it won't really test efficiency of my method, if I read the text and learn all the words in it and then listen to the same thing that I just read I don't see how it tests my listening skills?

It would only make sense if audio contained same vocabulary, but structured differently. If I listen to the same thing I'll know what's comming.

Anyways I listened to that transcrip for a short moment and if that's the comparable to the speed of audio on HSK then I don't think it's fast in anyway. Well, faster than American news, but these are very slow most of the time.

[animal world]

I like to develop a language only by training reading and the rest will work out itself, that's how I basically developed my english (of course I had to do some other stuff in my classes, but I wasn't learning much english there anyways, most was thanks to my reading). Before going to the USA for a short period of time, I almost never used SPOKEN english outside of classroom, well guess what? I had virtually no problems to speak almost fluent english (and after some time I'd say it was fluent) and even more my accent was very close to standard American.

Exactly how long was your stay in the US that you described as a "short period of time" yet allowed you to be fluent? You come across as more than a little arrogant (and also very young). I could accept the claims you make if they came from someone having exceptional linguistic abilities but the quality of the writing in your posts doesn't reflect that in the least.

I've never heard of any language method advocating that listening and speaking can be acquired only by reading and I would never waste a dime on such an approach. But hey, I don't possess your linguistic acumen, so what would I know?

[johndones]

I don't know if I didn't write it clear enough, but before I came to the USA I was already able to express myself in a pretty fluent manner only that I wasn't completely fluent, because I didn't have the automatism of speaking that a fluent speaker does (in my opinion). So I don't know if you got something wrong, but it's not that I couldn't speak english in my home country and miraculosly was able to do it fluently in the USA.

I was in the USA for 5 months, my stay there wasn't related to learning english and I knew only few Americans that I would talk to regulary, so my stay there was very insignificant in terms of learning english and so was my development.

Also I didn't say that I only read to develop my english, I said reading was the only thing that I put focused effort into. If you read more carefully you'll notice that I mentioned watching TV.

I never practiced speaking ALOUD in a serious manner, but it doesn't mean I didn't think about speaking. I was pronouncing in my mind all the time.

There's nothing amazing about learning this way.

If it's really so strange for you then I'm sure you can find a lot of information on the Internet about people learning in ways similar to mine.

No need to use personal arguments, let's keep it clean.

[renzhe]

gato - well this is basically my plan - to be able to pass highest level of HSK after one year of study without any trouble.

You won't

I like your enthusiasm, and it's very important to be confident and motivated. In fact, it's crucial. Learning a language is not impossible, it's totally doable.

But I think that you'll find that your ability to absorb new data decreases as the reviewing load increases. Like imron said, it's a marathon, not a sprint. It's VERY easy to learn hundreds of words per day in the first few weeks. It's much harder to retain them and develop other skills (reading, listening, etc.) at the same time.

Just the reading part of the HSK will require having read at least 5000 pages of books and novels. The listening part will take hundreds of hours of active listening. Don't underestimate the effort needed.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I just hope that you don't give up once the going gets relly tough. Like 3 years from now

[chrix]

Well, there's always people with exceptional language abilities, like that famous late MIT linguistics professor. He could learn languages like Hoshi Sato from Enterprise, just by being exposed to them. This professor would go to Japan or Denmark for a week or so, and return fluent in Japanese or Danish (I'm not sure how much his abilities related to the script, most people talk about oral skills) But this kind of talent is one in a billion I'd say....

[renzhe]

Has anyone ever received HSK11 after studying for a year? What is the fastest time? It would be interesting to know.

Someone who started from scratch, not some Japanese professor who knew 8000 kanji already.

[imron]

Has anyone ever received an HSK 11?

[renzhe]

I'm sure some Chinese guy did

[gato]

The HSK is graded on a curve. Getting an 11 on the Advanced is equivalent to scoring above the 96% among all takers of the HSK Advanced Exam, something very difficult when many of the test takers are Koreans and Japanese who already know a large number of Chinese characters by the time they graduate from high school. A number of people on this board have gotten a 10, however, which is still pretty impressive.

A 9 is equivalent to scoring approximately in the 60-85 percentile, and a 10 equivalent to 85-96 percentile. I calculated these percentiles based on the statistics published by the HSK folks.

See here for the calculation:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=189384#post189384

Re: How consistent have your HSK scores been?

Based on the scores reported on this board, it seems that most Westerners have trouble with the Reading and Essay sections and do well in the listening and speaking sections (particularly speaking), all relative to the curve, of course:

- Roddy

- heifeng

- Wiley

- wushijiao

- gringles007

- cliveloughlin

- ajax

None of them got above a 70 in the reading section, whereas almost all of them got above 70 for the listening and speaking sections (several got close to 90 in scaled score, which is a high 11, for speaking).

A minimum of 78 in scaled score is needed to get an 11. A minimum of between 66-70 (depending on the section) is needed for a 10.

Edited November 14, 2009 at 04:35 AM by gato