Pinyin /c/ pronounced as /t/ ?

[Hofmann]

Right now, I seem especially irritable.

.............Must...not...scold...n00bs...and...ppl...who...act...like...n00bs...but...should...know...better...

Ahem... In Hanyu Pinyin, "c" represents [tsʰ] in IPA. I'm pretty sure both the man and the woman said "tiao4 cao2." However, because of their microphones or the audio compression, some high frequency detail was lost. Therefore, their speech may be misinterpreted.

My equipment:

Modded SoundBlaster X-Fi SB0460 sound card

Sennheiser HD 600 headphones

[renzhe]

Wrong: Before Pinyin, it was "ts" or some other combination via Wade-Giles or other systems of romanization.

I'm talking about English, not Pinyin or Wade-Giles.

English transcribes the "c" sound as "ts" because in English, the the "c" sound doesn't occur on its own. Languages like Russian or German or Croatian, where the sound "c" (or t͡s if you wish) does occur on its own, usually have a separate character for it ("Ц", "z" and "c", respectively).

Tsar is a good example of "Ts" being used in English to represent the "c" or "Ц" or "t͡s" sound. Subsequently, most English speakers pronounce this word incorrectly.

Here is the wikipedia page about the voiceless alveolar affricate, including a list of languages that use it. English is not among them, and most languages use either "c" or "z", or "Ц" if they use the Cyrillic alphabet.

It's never Tzar. It's always been Tsar or Czar.

Merriam-Webster

Edited September 23, 2009 at 11:44 AM by renzhe

[Guest realmayo]

.............Must...not...scold...n00bs...and...ppl...who...act...like...n00bs...but...should...know...better...

Don't think I understand that.

HashiriKata I guess you're regretting mentioning Nciku now. As for real life, I sometimes hear the opposite, there the first sound (like "t") kind of gets lost in the sibilant (or whatever) sound that follows, ie that second sound is emphasised more than the "t".

[anonymoose]

I think it's wrong to think of "c" as a combination of "t" and "s".

I think it's wrong to think it's wrong to think of "c" as a combination of "t" and "s".

Firstly, let's assume the pinyin c sound represents a single sound. That does not negate the validity of what I wrote previously.Think of it this way: the pinyin c sound lies somewhere on a continuum between a t and s sound (even if it is just a single sound). Thus, if c is pronounced closer to the t end of the continuum, it may sound like a t.

Now, as to whether pinyin c can accurately be represented by a (successive) ts combination, I think this is a complex issue. You see, even for single sounds as represented by pinyin c or German z, that does not necessarily mean the sound is uniform throughout its period of enunciation. Yes, it may be a single sound in the psyche of the speaker, but the mouth will still go through a series of positions to produce the sound, and the sound will change in quality during this process. Of course it's impossible to represent this sound perfectly using letters based on their English pronunciation, but the ts combination does a good job of representing the contours of the c sound. Perhaps the German z or the others you mentioned are closer still, but I'm sure even those differ from an authentic chinese pinyin c, and besides this, as has been demonstrated by the original topic of this thread itself, the exact quality of the c sound will vary from one speaker to another anyway. So whatever letters you use to transcribe the pinyin c, they will never provide a universally perfect representation. So, representing pinyin c as ts may not be completely accurate, but I don't think it can be considered to be wrong either.

[renzhe]

No, it's fine to write it like that -- all writing is approximation anyway, and sounds like "sh" and "ch" get written with more than one character.

As long as you pronounce it as one sound, t͡s, and not as t+s, all is fine.

Firstly, let's assume the pinyin c sound represents a single sound. That does not negate the validity of what I wrote previously.Think of it this way: the pinyin c sound lies somewhere on a continuum between a t and s sound (even if it is just a single sound). Thus, if c is pronounced closer to the t end of the continuum, it may sound like a t.

That's fine. I understood you as saying that one is followed by the other. Starting as "t", then turning into "s". The actual sound might sound more like one or the other, but not like one followed by the other.

Having said that, I'm sure that you pronounce it just fine.

[muyongshi]

I've been staying out of this one, watching from the sidelines. Find them interesting but typically nothing to contribute- I'm not a linguist. One thing I have noticed though is that explaining the c by saying thing of a ts gets most people from the US/Canada on the right track of the proper pronunciation.

[skillphiliac]

Meng Lelan' date=' I believe the link is fixed. (Swedish IP, should be no problems)

Xiaocai, yes, of course they are two different consonants/sounds, but they may still sound similar to the ears of a non-native speaker, for example - a German (an illustration>> in German tschüß is the one & only sound closest to Mandarin "q", therefore "ts" was used in spelling as the closest-sounding to "qi"). Anyway, in the past, these were spelled exactly the same, as "ts", and I guess perhaps (some) German learners may still be spelling Chinese words using this method, to make learning pinyin pronunciation easier, i.e. closer to "German ear".[/quote']

Fairly bad example. This is just Wade-Giles working, also tschueß only resembles the pinyin-q due to the "sch". Tsingdao in German would be zingdao in pinyin, you might see where this is leading. I personally dislike Wade-Giles for various reasons, and it certainly is not based on German...

[889]

"In Wade-Giles before Pinyin was introduced, anyone would be using Ts' instead of Q while learning Chinese, whether you're German or not."

No, in Wade-Giles ts' represents the solitary initial c, not q. It's Ca > Ts'a, Cai >Ts'ai, Can > Ts'an, Cang > Ts'ang, Cao > Ts'ao, Ce > Ts'e, Cen > Ts'en, Ceng > Ts'eng, Ci > Tz'u, Cong > Ts'ung, Cou > Ts'ou, Cu > Ts'u, Cuan > Ts'uan, Cui > Ts'ui, Cun > Ts'un, Cuo > Ts'o. The Pinyin q is ch' in Wade-Giles.

Qingdao was Tsingtao, just as Beijing was Peking, as a result of the Qing Postal System romanization, not Wade-Giles. In Wade-Giles, Qingdao is Ch'ing-tao.

[leeyah]

Fairly bad example. This is just Wade-Giles working, also tschueß only resembles the pinyin-q due to the "sch". Tsingdao in German would be zingdao in pinyin, you might see where this is leading. I personally dislike Wade-Giles for various reasons, and it certainly is not based on German...

Wade-Giles served its purpose internationally at one time IMHO, before the invention of pinyin, that is. Since you referred to my example in post #4, I'd just like to clarify:

Unlike English, there are as many similarities between German and Mandarin in pronunciation as there are differences in the spelling of similar sounds. In German ts © + ch (č) + üß (üss) give what in pinyin would be written as "qu si" (区斯) not "zu si" (租斯) and I linked to the pronunciation only to illustrate a similarity between Chinese and German pronunciation, ie. the latter using "ts + u" to represent a sound rare in German but very common in Chinese >>"qu".

In contrast, "ts" alone "Tsingdao Beer" is pronounced "ci" (次) & not "zi" (自), like in your erroneous equalization of "zingdao" with "tsingtao". It's not "z‘ but "s " which is pronounced like the pinyin "z" in German hence the use of "ts" instead. On the other hand "z" in German is pronounced just like pinyin "c" (eg. Zeit = 嚓以忑) , so confusion is possible for German beginners before they've mastered the pinyin chart, but solely due to the disparity in phonetic representation of those sounds and not in their pronunciation.

Now consider English which has no "c", so it uses "ts" to "explain"/represent what in pinyin and eg. most Slavic languages, take Slovak or Croatian for example: borovice "tsa) or djeca = "tsa" (嚓) ie. is pronounced exactly the same as the Chinese sound represented by pinyin "c" in tiaocao/tiaotsao 跳槽. That's why, as was stated before, most Slavic speakers, have no problems either reading pinyin or pronouncing it, especially those tricky ones like eg "r" in "renao" 热闹 or "c" in "xiaci" 下次, because they have ž & c in their languages, which are the exact equivalents.

I can only guess that your native language has none of these so you probably can't articulate either of the two, & your not being able to hear the difference is understandable. Compare the pronunciations of boots (bu:ts) vs booze (bu:z) in English respectively, and I'm sure it'll be much clearer.

[renzhe]

Germans pronounce Tsingtao Beer as T-Sing-Tao Beer and Tsinghua University as T-Sing-Hua University.

Germans write the pinyin "c" as either "c" or "z". When they see "ts", they usually read a "t" followed by an "s".

The German "tsch" is a combination of "t" and "sch", which is read as a pinyin "sh". I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that "ts" only happens in German when "s" is added to something that ends with "t", and it is read as two sounds.

That's why, as was stated before, most Slavic speakers, have no problems either reading pinyin or pronouncing it, especially those tricky ones like eg "r" in "renao" 热闹 or "c" in "xiaci" 下次, because they have ž & c in their languages, which are the exact equivalents.

I agree with you, mostly, but "ž" is not exactly the same as a Chinese "r".

I tend to think of the Chinese "r" as somewhere between how I'd pronounce a Croatian "r" and a Croatian "ž".

[leeyah]

Germans write the pinyin "c" as either "c" or "z". When they see "ts", they usually read a "t" followed by an "s".

If German "s" is read "z", which under the weight of "t" preceding it becomes almost a pinyin "c", then how come you mixed up "tz" & "ts" in Tsar for Russian "Цар" ? Or are you saying Katze would be pronounced t+s if it were written as Katse?

(Just joking, hope you don't mind ) & you're right, it's probably just a bit milder than the Chinese "c".

As for "r" vs "ž", true, it is a sound also somewhere in-between, as explained in the quote from the wiki link below. However, the way it is spoken in the Chinese North, I'd say it's still much closer to the sound of a mild Slavic "ž" or perhaps closer to the French equivalent in séjour. Here's more on Pinyin from wiki - Slovenia:

Črko r se izgovarja vedno kot češki ř (kot če bi izgovorili r in ž hkrati). Ta glas se zdi podoben slovenskemu ž, zato se pri poslovenjenju pogosto uporablja kar črko ž, npr.: 人民日报 Rénmín Rìbào, poslovenjeno Ženmin Žibao, kar pa ne ustreza popolnoma originalni izgovorjavi.

If I got it right, it says: "r" is pronounced as Czech ř, which sound similar to Slavic/slovenian "ž", so in transcription of Chinese names "ž" is used and Renmin Ribao becomes "slavicized' Ženmin Žibao, which (however) does not correspond in full to the original (Chinese) pronunciation.

Rant over.

[renzhe]

how come you mixed up "tz" & "ts" in Tsar for Russian "Цар" ?

Actually, "Tzar" is one valid, correct way to write the word in English. The others are "Tsar" and "Czar".

To me, they are all incorrect ways to write "Car"

Or are you saying Katze would be pronounced t+s if it were written as Katse?

I'm not a native speaker of German (I've only lived here for 10 years), but that's exactly how I'd read it if it were written like that.

As for "r", yeah, I've heard different pronunciations from native speakers, ranging from a very blurred, "ž" to a crisp, rolling "r". The standard, CCTV pronunciation definitely sounds like something between these two to my ears.

Funnily, the Czech "ř" is transcribed into "rž" in Serbian. Dvořak -> Dvoržak. Croatians don't transliterate names written using the Latin alphabet so they write "Dvořak", but they pronounce it "Dvoržak". The Slovenian wiki page basically says that ř is pronounced as r and ž at the same time, so I guess it's the closest match to the pinyin "r" in European languages.

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert on Czech or Slovenian, but I am an expert on Croatian

[skillphiliac]

I'll be quick about it.

First, if an uninvolved, natively german-speaking person were to read "Tsingtao" it would be, depending on her or his disposition, pronounced zingtao or cingtao. I would also like to note that 去死 for example would not be the equivalent at all to tschuess. The double-s would shorten the vowel, or to be more specific umlaut, and not have a vowel on its end itself. Still, I don't quite see how you want "tsu" to be able to represent "qu" rather than "zu" or "cu". It is just plain wrong.

Assuming that "z" and "c" in German are phonetically the same is also no exactly correct. There is no inherent need to distinguish both, but it certainly is noticable. The closest approximation is probably "tz" for "c" and "ds" for z. The first one allows it to be pronounced much more succinctly whereas number two leads to a rather voiced sound. There are actually words for both these examples in German, it just isn't necessary to distinguish either of them. As a matter of fact, Germans nowadays seem to have hardly any problems at all concerning the distinct pronounciations, although there are always some more troubled than others, obviously.

Please help me understand how the example of 热闹 comes into play here, I don't think it should be too difficult for anyone of those we're talking about here.

Lastly, well, yes, my native language is German, so I know quite well what I am talking about. Also, I can perfectly distinguish uniquenesses of this like, no problem with that at all. As a matter of fact, in the whole I am quite glad to not have any trouble concerning the Chinese, English or German language in regard to phonetics. Oh well.

And I think the comparison of boots and booze is dangerous play once again and not quite comparable with our previous problems, since we technically haven't spoken about it yet.

[renzhe]

I would also like to note that 去死 for example would not be the equivalent at all to tschuess. The double-s would shorten the vowel, or to be more specific umlaut, and not have a vowel on its end itself.

This might be regional, but I'm absolutely certain that Tschüss is pronounced with a long ü in the north. Similarly, some dialects still retain the difference between "e" and "ä", while it's essentially gone in modern Hochdeutsch, unless you are really trying to stress the difference.

In general, though "ss" follows short vowels, while "ß" follows long ones, at least after the last grammar reform.

Assuming that "z" and "c" in German are phonetically the same is also no exactly correct.

Can you hear the difference between "Celle" and "Zelle"? Or between the beginning of "CEBIT" and "Zentrum"?

But it's an interesting discussion, because we have already had a similar one, involving the "ch" in "Bach" and the "h" in "Haus", where I was in the minority claiming that they are not the same.

[skillphiliac]

Germans pronounce Tsingtao Beer as T-Sing-Tao Beer and Tsinghua University as T-Sing-Hua University.

I take it you are speaking of people unaware of Chinese pronounciation.

Concerning the rest: I don't quite know whether it is supposed to contradict itself, but when Germans see a "ts" they heavily tend to read it both "c" and "z". Also, "tsch" is only pronounced as a pinyin "sh" when speaking extremely sloppy, normally it would be a "q".

Tsching --> qing

Tschiang --> qiang

Tschinn --> qin

etc.

[renzhe]

I take it you are speaking of people unaware of Chinese pronounciation.

Yes.

"tsch" is only pronounced as a pinyin "sh" when speaking extremely sloppy

"sch" is pronounced as a pinyin "sh", not "tsch". To my ears, "tsch" is somewhere between pinyin "q" and "ch", but it will also depend on the speaker.

[animal world]

Now consider English which has no "c"

Although not germane to the c>ts discussion, just for the record, the English c has a number of pronunciations. Besides the mentioned k sound, such as in car, cut, cooperate, there are more sibilant renditions of the English c. Cigar, cerebral, Caesarian come to mind. There is the q sound in words such as curator, cute, cubic. To my knowledge, there's no c in English pronounced as ts (unless one is in a high state of intoxication) but thanks to this thread i'll be wrecking my brain about this all day long.

[skillphiliac]

Actually, it IS regional. I see you are currently living in 汉堡, well, how to put it, this "tschues" is pretty characteristic up in the north. As a matter of fact, there have multiple possible ways to write said word. "tschues" with one "s", explicitly used when the one writing it does pronounce the "ü" fairly long. In the south then again it is by far more common to write "tschuess", also we don't stress the "ue" too much. The third variant is the sharp s "ß", as in "tschueß". I like using it although it is outdated, because (in my humble opinion) it can represent both, depending on how you take on the "ß".

Aditionally, you couldn't say "e" and "ae" have merged in High German, no matter where you live, if you are talking with someone and say Äsel (donkey) and vice versa Ehre (instead of Ähre, corncob) you are sure to get laughed at.

Going for the last paragraph; yes and no.

Why is that? Well, I can't hear a difference if none is pronounced. Since it is more or less obsolete to differentiate the "z" and "c" nuances in German, not too many bother pronouncing it all too correctly. But once in a while, I am able to distinguish such. Always depends on the speaker.

And yes, it is interesting.

[renzhe]

Aditionally, you couldn't say "e" and "ae" have merged in High German, no matter where you live, if you are talking with someone and say Äsel (donkey) and vice versa Ehre (instead of Ähre, corncob) you are sure to get laughed at.

This is a case where people will make a point to make it different.

I personally, cannot hear a difference between "wer" and "wär". If that's the only thing somebody says to you, I don't think you'd know which one it is either.

The only person I've met where I can clearly hear the difference grew up around Bonn. So, regionally, there is a difference.

But, after thinking about it for a while, I'm not that sure that they are always the same In any case, they are far closer than they were in the past, and still are around Cologne.

Why is that? Well, I can't hear a difference if none is pronounced. Since it is more or less obsolete to differentiate the "z" and "c" nuances in German, not too many bother pronouncing it all too correctly. But once in a while, I am able to distinguish such. Always depends on the speaker.

Perhaps it's like "č" and "ć" in Croatian, where even native speakers get it wrong all the time, while guys like me still harp on about how different they are

[skillphiliac]

I won't deny that "ae" used to be much more distinct from "e", but I personally have run only occasionally into people not pronouncing them differently at all. But it certainly depends on the region you find yourself in, no doubt. Then again, this is valid for most languages...

Oh, I like this.