Immersion advice - 14 months

[odaiba]

Hi all,

I am sure similar "learning advice" questions have already been posted, but each case is different is different, so here is the deal on my end. I have been studying Chinese for 6 months now (not in China though) and I now now around 1000 words and probably 6-700 characters (I have taken japanese in college before, so it helps). My listening and speaking are awful, but I can understand 25-50% of a lot of hanzi subtitles when I try (I say try as I am still unable to understand the main menaing without looking at the characters and/or pinyin when I don't know the character) to watch movies.

I am giving myself 14 months in China (this will be super intense with 8 hours of daily classes with a tutor) and I NEED to be close to fluent (at least for speaking and listening) after that. I will obviously aim to get a very good score on the HSK too. By the way, I need this as I will be working in either mainland China or Hong Kong after that.

So...here are my obvious questions:

1/ What types of exercises are best to do on a daily basis throughout those months to get to my end goal? This will be 1-on-1, so there is a lot of flexibility to design the curriculum. I really want to avoid doing mostly academic book stuff where you end up not being able to speak correctly at the end. I have seen posts recommending listening to podcasts everyday and reading 1 article per day and build up the vocabulary from there. This sounds good, but I could probably do that outside of the 1-on-1 sessions. Outside of classes, I will obviously try to speak as much as possible to people in Chinese.

2/ Everybody is of course different blah blah... but is there any chance that my mandarin could be good enough at the end of those 14 months so that I could go through interviews and work using the language?

Thanks to those who have taken time to go through this.

Cheers!

Odaiba

[imron]

My advice would be to cut the number of hours with a tutor by half. Firstly learning Chinese requires a lot of of work that no-one can really help you with. Paying for a tutor to stand over your shoulder while you learn characters/revise flashcards is pointless.

Also, if you are spending 8 hours a day with a tutor, don't forget you will still need to add in time to do any coursework/homework set by that tutor, and this will increase your daily workload to much more than 8 hours. Afterall homework is more or less essential because it's pointless to pay someone to stand around while you write a 400 word essay. It's a much better use of time to have a lesson, have the tutor set homework, finish classes for the day, do the homework and then discuss the results in your next lesson.

Finally, 8 hours a day is a lot (plus whatever time you are then required to spend on homework). You will almost certainly burn out at that pace well before the 14 months is over.

I am reminded of this story:

A martial arts student went to his teacher and said earnestly, "I am devoted to studying your martial system. How long will it take me to master it." The teacher's reply was casual, "Ten years." Impatiently, the student answered, "But I want to master it faster than that. I will work very hard. I will practice everyday, ten or more hours a day if I have to. How long will it take then?" The teacher thought for a moment, "20 years."

Sometimes 欲速则不达。 Learning Chinese is a marathon not a sprint. If you start out at a sprinting pace you will not have the energy to go the distance.

[wushijiao]

but is there any chance that my mandarin could be good enough at the end of those 14 months so that I could go through interviews and work using the language?

I would say that that goal might be a bit hard to meet, but anything is possible.

At the end of the day, if you were able to complete many good textbooks, and combine that with a ton of free reading, and podcast listening (tons of listening is the key, in my opinion) , movie/TV watching and chatting, then you might be able to do it.

Also, it should go without saying that you should start doing as much work as possible now.

Good luck!

[SunDaYu]

I second the focus on listening. If you don't understand what they are saying then you can't respond at all. I've had plenty of times where I knew exactly what they meant and then essentially just used body language to respond if I had no idea what to say.

[odaiba]

Thanks for the quick responses! I will put listening on top of my list indeed. I plan to cover all the key intermediate textbooks (I have gone through the first 2 NPCR books so far) by the end of the first 3 months. I actually still have 1 month before I start the 14 month countdown. While I am not in China during this month, I figured it would make more sense to learn as much vocabulary and grammar as possible so that this will be one less thing to worry about once I hit the ground in China.

As for the work during those tutoring hours, it would be mostly focused on speaking & listening drills, grammar & textbook, AND, which I think would be very helpful as well, vocabulary in context (I am currently learning a ton of different words and characters and I am not often super clear as to which one is appropriate depending on the context i.e. when you want to say things to do/to think about, I can already think of 4-5 words to express this words "things/stuff" - 东西, 事儿, 事情, 实事 - but I am not 100% clear on the context)

On the burnout point, it is indeed a risk, but I am confident that I can manage it given that I am really motivated for this. I have already had a total of 3 distinct years of very intense work in my life so far (2 years of M&A work in London with workload >100 hours a week and 1 year of prep school in France). I expect the work outside the tutoring hours to be at least 3-4 hours a day.

Thanks again!

Odaiba

[renzhe]

It's a very ambitious schedule, but go for it. As long as you don't burn out and keep your study regular and intense, you can make great progress. You probably won't be completely fluent by the end of it, but it's possible to reach a conversational level in that time, with the right attitude. In my estimation, of course.

This will provide you with all the listening you will need. Listening is crucial, especially in the absence of immersion. It will not only improve your listening comprehension, but will significantly improve your tones and pronunciation too. Pick some modern shows that are easy and go for volume. Hundreds of hours, if you can find the time. The more you can understand before moving to China, the more you will profit from your stay.

东西 usually refers to something physical

事儿 usually refers to an event, or an action, work that needs to be done, etc.

事情 usually refers to a situation or circumstances

实事 is a fact, or an actual thing (as opposed to something false or imaginary)

That the basic difference, but you learn that stuff through context, generally, as there are always special cases, etc. Memorising should give you a basic notion, then reading and listening will clear up the differences.

[odaiba]

Thanks for the great answer, this is an awesome list! Thanks a ton renzhe!

[animal world]

1. A ratio of 3 hours of studying and reading to one (50-minute) lecture in college for most subjects seems about right. Hence, you'd be better off to cut back the hours with a tutor to a schedule of 4 hours a day. How do you know that your tutor will have your best interests at heart and isn't in it solely for the money? (I don't mean to sound nasty but there are many universities that care much more about enrolling students than about graduating them). Also, do you have a back-up tutor in case the original one stops being available for various reasons?

2. A Repetition Drill, i.e. a flashcard program is an absolute must. I'm using Mnemosyne and am very happy with it. There are others. Do a search at this site.

3. As to listening, Slow Chinese (do a search here) might be a good initiation. Make sure you're aware of dialects spoken in whatever TV show or movie you're watching!

4. Be very disciplined. Make word lists of all words you need to look up. Hence install a drill program asap so that your word lists will be in the desired format (i learned this the hard way). I find making good word lists takes quite a bit of time as well, i.e. yet another argument that 8 hours with a tutor a day is way too long.

Here's the link for the Slow Chinese: http://www.slow-chinese.com/?p=3

Edited September 30, 2009 at 04:17 PM by animal world

[gato]

Get the Pleco Dictionary and use its flashcard function religiously.

http://www.pleco.com/

[Groat]

I did a 1-on-1 intensive course a year ago in Shanghai which was only one month and I was doing it only for 5 hours a day. It was insanely hard, I was exhausted after each day. I'd go through some characters in the evening, but I could master strength for an hour max. 1-on-1 language learning is very intense, you have to focus ALL the time. I've also had my share of hard schooling (I'm currently in a military academy) but nothing compares to that. I guess you do get used to it after a month or two though, but at least you know now to go prepared.

So, I definately second imron's opinion: 8 hours is very much. You might be able to do it, I couldn't. I'd say 4 hours is plenty, use the extra hours you have got into participating into some activity with Chinese people (do Taiji or something), watching TV and doing homework and characters.

Just my two groats.

[animal world]

A word of caution: digest, research and evaluate the suggestions you receive here. Only then, settle on a course of action that's suitable for you. This will avoid for you ending up with "alphabet soup," i.e. a stew of many overlapping or conflicting files/programs of data and learning systems.

I'm fluent in a few languages (alas, Chinese is not one of them) and i firmly believe that it is impossible to become fluent in any language in a matter of two years, certainly not in Chinese. But if you stick to a sensible program you should be able to hold your own in Chinese. Give yourself some time out when you reach a stage when learning Chinese no longer seems fun but a major battle. In any case, best of luck in this endeavor.

[renzhe]

Give yourself some time out when you reach a stage when learning Chinese no longer seems fun but a major battle.

I wouldn't say time out. Instead, I'd recommend limiting studying to the minimum needed to maintain your level, and switch to more entertaining modes of studying.

When I burn out, I read comic books, or watch funny TV shows. It's good exercise that doesn't feel like studying, but is still productive. I limit flashcarding, grammar, and other stuff to a minimum.

[fritz]

Hi Odaiba,

Here is my take on on your queries. I have a similar background as yourself and first I think it's wise to think through what you want to achieve with your studies and finding a job in China. You seem like you've done your research so you may already know this, but salaries on the mainland are a 1/3 up to 1/2 of London finance salaries are on a junior level, except for top-tier banks where salaries across the world are quite standardised. But the best graduates from Beida and Qinghua are lucky to get 15k kuai after graduation. I'm not sure if you can count on much more than that, even after 2 years of M&A experience. Hong Kong is a different case of course. Second, after 200% credit growth on the mainland for a few years, stock markets and real estate are in bubble-territory and a lot of people agree that credit losses a few years down the line could bring the country into another and much deeper recession. The Chinese economy is getting a lot of publicity in international newspapers these days, but it could just be that the future for China isn't as rosy as it seems. I've met a few ex-bankers and others who want to jump on the China-bandwagon, many of which have pretty unrealistic expectations of the opportunities out there for westerners who know how to speak Chinese.

As for your queries, I think the best method to learn a vast number of words and grammar patterns is to read a huge amount of text + use flashcards to retain those words in your memory. Since HSK is one of your goals it's good if the textbooks or readers you use follow HSK vocabulary lists, eg PKU's Boya-series or NPCR. You're already well on your way and 700 hanzi is already a good job for 6 months of studying on your own (the 1000 words/700 hanzi ratio sounds a bit low though?). I agree with the others that 8 hours of tutoring every day is improductive use of your time - 4 hours should definitely be enough if that time is well spent. Another 6-8 hours of reading, doing exercises, speaking and watching tv-shows etc. should provide you with the 'super-intensive' schedule you're looking for. Imo textbooks are a great resource to start with to build up your knowledge step-by-step but once you reach high-intermediate/advanced stage a lot of textbooks become tedious and counterproductive, teaching you words you will never use in real life. At this stage your Chinese will be good enough to attack tv-shows, newspapers or double-language books (English translation on one page, Chinese on the opposite). For spoken Chinese, best is to get yourself a Chinese girlfriend who knows some English or French, but insists on speaking Chinese with you.

A query though, are you planning to study in China solely on your own doing 1-on-1 classes or are you doing tutoring outside of a regular course? Having classmates and a college environment where you study could make the experience a lot more interesting, even though you might resort to speaking English or French. Some of the aspects of university classes (structure, teaching of proper pronunciation, peer pressure to study) could be beneficial to your Chinese.

A lot of foreign companies have English-speaking office environment, so I think that generally only a part of the interview would be conducted in English. I think they will be impressed by any foreigner speaking Chinese, and I think you will be able to hold a decent conversation with your motivation and further 14 months of study in China. You may not match the Chinese level of a native speaker, but learning Chinese is a long-term project and employers presumably understand this.

Good luck with your studies

[Artem]

I suggest making studying Chinese fun, otherwise at that kind of pace you will burn out fast. If approached right, 14 month in China is more than enough time.

I went to China with about the same level as yours, I studied intensively for about 11 month before going back.

The only big advice I can give you is forget any other language exists.

Don't ever speak a word of English while you are in China.

Also, download anki, use it daily. I can share some more tips at a later time, have to leave.

Good luck!

[gato]

Fritz's advice on studying and the job market are both very good.

[odaiba]

Wow! Thanks all for the input. I now have to digest and attack this right. A lot of very good advice here. I will probably adjust my planning as I go along, but the first 3-4 months definitely have to be hardcore and I will have to force myself to read 1-2 articles per day and go through extensive listening on a daily basis. I will also front load most of the grammar in the first 2-3 months so that it will be then free up time for more interactive activities.

The Chinese girlfriend might be an angle, but that might complicates things as I am not too keen to have a language-based relationship, that would feel weird for some reason...

As Artem said, I indeed plan to cut off from any english-speaking interaction. I have already set up a lot of functionalities I use on a daily basis to hanzi (i.e. skype, gmail, etc). Once I hit the ground in China, a couple of emails here and there will be my only interaction with the non-chinese speaking world :-0)

Also, thanks Fritz for the learning advice. On the job market front though, I am aware of the salaries differences, but, in my case, it doesn't matter much since I have a solid technical background with a top tier US ibank (one that has not collapsed :-0)) and I will be applying for positions based out of HK, Shanghai or Singapore (as you said, salary structures are standardized across the world).

I am taker of any further advice and I will keep going over the forum until end October when I hit the ground in China.

I will post once I have re-emerged after my 14-month "commando" operation...

Thanks again!

Odaiba

[Ed Log]

How many tutors will you have per day?

Any tutor starts to flag after 2-3 hours. Perhaps if you line up 2 or 3 different tutors for each day.

Only issues is vocab.

You will pick new words up with each tutor. Is your target around 20 per day? You should get from a single 3 hr 121 session but with 3 sessions you'll be getting 30-60 new words with out even trying.

Also where do you plan to study? Some cities are more fun than others so have distractions, but probably best to mix it up a little and try a few cities.

I would strongly suggest you allow some travel time to go out and practice.

The best place to speak mandarin is out on the street - more fun anyway

Edited October 5, 2009 at 11:16 PM by Ed Log

[imron]

My other concern is how much real exposure to the language will you be getting. I know I learnt the most through interacting with Chinese people around me. How much time for interacting with Chinese people will you have if you are studying 11-12 hours a day? (besides of course your tutor, who will speak slowly to adjust to your ability, have a familiar accent etc).

[odaiba]

Thanks a lot. Interaction with Chinese people and practising on the streets is indeed efficient and more fun. I will heed this advice. I will probably adjust the daily % classroom/% street practising as I go along. Probably the first 3-4 months will be 90% classroom/studying and, then, I will start mixing more and the learning will become more fun.

I won't study in either Beijing or Shanghai, that's for sure. I will probably end up in a big city in the northern/eastern part, the key being to target a city that is as non-touristy as possible. I might end up switching cities along the way, but the first 3-4 months will be spent in the same city, that's for sure.

I won't indeed have the same tutor throughout the day. I am targeting a minimum 20 new words per day, and that includes sunday :-0) After anything above that will be bonus.

[waixingren]

I've done the one-on-one chinese tutor here in china. it's a great help. However, make sure the tutor is an acutal teacher (studied teaching chinese) and not a "I can teach you Chinese" native speaker. Make sure the teacher only speaks to you in Chinese. it might be tough at first but then u start to understand what they are saying.

Also get ready for chinese stranges to come up to u and wanting to speak in english. It happens all the time for me. As one-on-one english lessons with a native english speaker are expensive in china this might work as an advantage for you. you can arange FREE help each other language sessions. U can do them at a local KFC (safe and public).

I know an english guy who would goto KFC everyday and pay a chinese senior citizen 10kuai an hour plus free coffee.. just to sit and read to him the chinese newspaper. Plus he learned how to play xiangqi (chinese chess)

I would goto the north east of china to study. it's cheaper to live and tutors are cheaper here too.