Taiwanese Accent Differences

[Guest Yau]

it's hard for the non-native speakers, and they are, according to Yau, exactely the ones that need a language everybody can pronounce and understand. More distinction between sounds makes a language easier, I think.

You're correct that the evolution is really NOT for foreigners, but for permanent settlers.

When taiwanese insisted less on "R" sound and Cantonese less on the distinction between n & l, n & ng sounds, I can't see it hindered my communication. In other words, if there were an overwhelming problem with these changes, it couldn't happen.

The fact is that foreign population is extremely low in China today, and therefore their impact on language is unimportant.

[Lu]

As I understood your point, you said a language would become easier to pronounce, with less distinction between some sounds, because people from other places started to speak that language and thus it would become a bit easier so that they were able to communicate in it.

I was not talking about foreigners, but about people who grew up speaking a non-Mandarin dialect.

When these people for example get to Taiwan or Shenzhen and have to speak Mandarin, it may be easier for them to speak with sloppy pronounciation, but sloppy pronounciation is harder to understand, so in the end there is no point in it.

Therefore, I think the coming of people from other places to Shenzhen or Taiwan is not enough explanation for the changes in Mandarin there.

[BeijingSlacker]

I wonder what they think about their own accents. Any one from Taiwan?

[Guest Yau]

sloppy pronounciation is harder to understand, so in the end there is no point in it.

Not quite sure your argument. Do you mean the communication distortion happens more often in taiwan because of what you called "sloppy pronunciation"?

[BeijingSlacker]

Well, I sometimes have problems understanding what they are saying and have to guess or ask them to repeat. This is due to the reduction of distinctions between certain sounds. If this made Mandarin easier to learn for nonnative speakers(well, I consider myself as a native speaker), the trade-off would be quite obvious-- it would make the language harder to understand too.

btw, to me s/sh, z/zh, c/ch etc. are quite distinctive sounds. I dont wanna sound patronizing, but if any Mandarin learners have problems distinguishing them,instead of complaining, just work on it. Learning a language is never an easy task.

[yonglan]

regarding the quote function, http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2712

Maybe it should be a sticky?

[xin_ke_le]

I wonder what they think about their own accents. Any one from Taiwan?

I'm Taiwanese, I don't really think its a sloppy pronunciation though. Actually, when we learn Mandarin in elementary school, or pronounciation is much more accurate, but as we all get older, we tend to drop the sh, zh, ch sounds. I think it has to do with our society and the many people like me, who learned Mandarin second.

But actually, I think you will find very standard pronunciation of sh, ch, and zh in mando pop from taiwan. Its not as strong as a China style, but its very much correct.

[Quest]

Actually, when we learn Mandarin in elementary school, or pronounciation is much more accurate, but as we all get older, we tend to drop the sh, zh, ch sounds.

That's true in Guangzhou, too. As people leave school and as they get older, their Mandarin tends to deteriorate.

[Lu]

I did not mean that there are more 'communication distortions' in Taiwan. And I definately did not mean to say that the Taiwanese pronounciation is bad, sorry if it came out like that.

Yau, you said people who have a different mother tongue tend to simplify the pronouciation (drop the erhua, no distinction of s/sh, z/zh), because those sounds are hard to pronounce for them, and that the language changed because of that.

I think, however, that when those harder-to-pronounce sounds are dropped, the language becomes easier to pronounce, but also harder to understand: more words sound alike. So, there is no gain for the non-native speakers, the language doesn't get easier for them if the pronounciation gets easier. So, I don't think the coming of many non-native speakers is the reason that Taiwanese have dropped the retroflexes.

Hope my point is clearer now.

[calibre2001]

'sloppy pronounciation'? I guess American English is kind of.......sloppy too?

Anyway, its true that its gonna be hard for a non native to understand. But is that not the challenge everyone faces when learning the language? Having said that, if you know the language , then any accent shouldnt be a big deal.

[Guest Yau]

there is no gain for the non-native speakers, the language doesn't get easier for them if the pronounciation gets easier. So, I don't think the coming of many non-native speakers is the reason that Taiwanese have dropped the retroflexes.

well, i think the concept "non-native" speakers are quite different to you and other chinese in different provinces.

For non-mandarin chinese, they've already possessed large set of vocab which is the KEY to understand spoken chinese, so less emphasis on mandarin "R" sound doesn't make a big difference.

Empirically, that's why you can't see any exceptional communication difficulty in taiwan. In Hong kong cantonese, I also can't see any communication problems when "l" and "n" sounds have been combined. The mutated English, in which "R" sounds are omitted and 'th' disappeared, are popular in Asia too, but it didn't make any distort on understanding the language in, at least, the so-called greater china region.

For real non-native people such as europeans and americans, I'm sure that they even find it difficult to understand chinese with strong emphasis "R" sounds, the fading of "R" will definitely make it more difficult. However, their needs are like the drop of water in the ocean as their population is too small to make any influence on the language.