孽缘 - inseparable sidekick?

[atitarev]

Can someone think of a better translation of 孽缘? It seems it means a person who is with you for a long time (together at high school, uni, etc.) but not necessarily your friend.

The Japanese equivalent is 腐れ縁 (kusare-en) but this doesn't help me either.

An example of a not very friendly introduction:

女子高中开始的孽缘。

Edited October 4, 2009 at 06:59 AM by atitarev

[anonymoose]

"Ill fate" perhaps

[gato]

The title of the movie "Fatal Attraction," with Michael Douglas and Glenn Close, is translated as 孽缘.

http://www.iciba.com/%E5%AD%BD%E7%BC%98/

Fatal Attraction

[HashiriKata]

I think 孽缘 has quite a wide range of meanings, the one that springs first in my mind of this word is an ill-fated relationship, a love that didn't reach the better end.

[atitarev]

Thanks, guys. Interesting that this word is missing in dictionaries I could check.

Another translated movie title where the word is used: 华丽孽缘 - ""The Other Boleyn Girl.

In the manga I found it used (NANA) it was between two girls.

[leeyah]

孽缘 means a relationship which is not meant to be, which shouldn't be allowed to develop, because it is doomed to a bad ending >> 有缘无份, 不会有结果.

It may imply any kind of socially unacceptable i.e. by traditional standards illicit/unnatural relationships and apparently the best way to deal with "germs" of 孽缘 is to cut it at the root, before it starts to grow and causes more trouble for both lovers.

[atitarev]

Thank you, leeyah. A good answer and a link.

[Guoke]

In my opinion, 孽缘 is not necessarily a bad thing. People encountering a 孽缘 are just paying for the sins of their past lives. It can actually be a valuable opportunity to get rid of your bad karma if you face up to it in a positive way.

[leeyah]

Well said, Guoke.

Atitarev, you asked for a translation. I don't know why, but somehow "impossible love" or "hopeless love" both sound just like 孽缘 to me.

[atitarev]

I don't like the translations offered by you guys, sorry, here's why:

A girl (Junko) introduces her classmate Nana, the one she looks after, as if she were here sister but she is just too immature and doesn't learn from experience. So, she says: 女子高中开始的孽缘。 My inseparable sidekick from all-girls' high school. She means that they have been together for a long time. Not that they were great friends but it just happened that they've been together for a long time. Nana always asks Junko for advice and Junko patiently gives it to her. There's no love or hatred between them, they are both girls but the friendship isn't equal. Nana benefited more than Junko because she needs protection and advice.

[roddy]

Star-crossed . . .er . . acquaintance?

The best I can think of would be 'faithful companion' - faithful indicates the onesidedness of the relationship, and companion is cooler than friend. I suspect it's more commonly used to refer to dogs, which fits with the following around, can't get rid of, idea.

Edited October 5, 2009 at 03:51 AM by roddy

[atitarev]

This sounds interesting, Roddy, thanks, I like companions, only why star-crossed? Faithful is better than doomed. They are inseparable but not doomed. I'd settle for "faithful companion" or "inseparable companion".

Do people agree that if we add a translation to online dictionaries for

孽緣 / 孽缘 nièyuán as "(undesirable but) faithful companion, inseparable sidekick"?

The original Japanese term 腐れ縁 (kusare-en) has the following translation:

(undesirable but) inseparable relationship, meaning both the relationship and the people having it.

The connotation in Japanese is worse, though, it comes from 腐れる (kusareru) - "to rot".

Edited October 5, 2009 at 05:26 AM by atitarev

[roddy]

Star-crossed was half-tongue in cheek - it's also halfway there though, Shakespeare used it for a couple fated to be together, even if the consequences were non-ideal for all concerned. You can't just go chucking Shakespeare into conversation without thinking about it, but if the narrator might be a bit of a show-off you could get a smile out of it. There's a bit of humour to be had out of 'star-crossed', which implies intense but doomed romance, paired with the mundane 'acquaintance', and also by bringing the language of the bard into a high-school girl's musings.

I don't like inseparable as it would usually be two-way - inseparable friends, but not inseparable foe. It sounds to me a little more like one is more attached to the other, hence I like the single-direction of faithful, and the puppy-like implications of 'faithful companion'.

Edit: I can also see 'nemesis' working in some cases. Not this one though. Also 'cross to bear'.

Edited October 5, 2009 at 07:36 AM by roddy

[rob07]

Not sure if I would describe the Glenn Close character from Fatal Attraction as a "faithful companion"... Seriously though, it appears that Junko is speaking tongue in cheek such that the context shouldn't be relied on as a guide to the literal meaning of 孽缘.

The connotation in Japanese is worse

The connotation in Chinese is pretty bad - 孽 means sin or evil deed. As Guoke says:

People encountering a 孽缘 are just paying for the sins of their past lives. It can actually be a valuable opportunity to get rid of your bad karma if you face up to it in a positive way.

In the 红楼梦, 宝钗 surname is 薛. Though their marriage is a mistake, 宝玉 fathers a 子 on her (a deliberate pun). But at least in the 高鹗 ending, this means that 宝玉 has discharged his duty to his ancestors and is thus free to cut his ties to the material world.

[atitarev]

Alright, let me rephrase the question.

Let's put semicolon (;) separated definitions of the word (dictionary style), fitting all the above-mentioned usage. I already mentioned mine (adding them to the list) because it actually fits the manga story well. I don't quite understand "star-crossed", sorry, my English but please add it to the definitions.

Here's a list, please correct the wrong one in your opinion or add yours

(undesirable but) faithful companion;

inseparable sidekick;

star-crossed acquaintance?;

cross to bear?;

Roddy, would you cross out my definitions if you were to define the entry?

[889]

"Star-crossed" refers to the relationship, or the couple. It's not used to refer to just one party.

Similarly, it's normally a relationship or a friendship that might be ill-fated, not one of those involved. An "ill-fated friend" would be a friend who suffers misfortune in life.

[atitarev]

So, what's your definition of 孽缘, 889?

[889]

If you're here to play games with posters, play them elsewhere.

[atitarev]

What is this sudden burst of aggression about? Was it called for? I asked you a question, if you don't want to answer, ignore it, say don't know, don't care.

As for the "star-crossed' referring to a party, it seems the Chinese term includes both (as the Japanese 腐れ縁 - (undesirable but) inseparable relationship or people having it).

Guys, can we add "star-crossed realtionship" to the list of definitions?

Edited October 6, 2009 at 02:10 AM by atitarev

[leeyah]

I'm not sure inseparable sidekicks is a good translation because the Chinese word for it is 死党 and it implies inseparability in itself in the most positive way, an extreme variant of much milder 密友 intimate friend or 伙伴 mate, companion, colleague.

(undesirable but) faithful companion, IMO that would be close to "star-crossed relationship" 命运多舛 的伴侣/情侣 (舛=不幸) defined as 一生坎坷，屡受挫折, a lifetime of hardships and disillusionment, but no way out. & finally, bear one's cross I think in Chinese is expressed with 忍痛, 忍受痛苦.

So, actually 孽缘 in your context in post #10 appears to be close to the definition of unasked for but inevitable acquaintance, in the sense of 命运注定的同伴, but not 摰友.

Unfortunate sidekicks, perhaps? Or ill-matched sidekicks?