anonymoose Posted October 19, 2009 at 02:12 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 02:12 AM I'm not 100% sure but isn't this sentence incorrect? Wouldn't it be better to say 他从书包里拿出来了一本书? No. If there's a disyllabic complement, the object goes between the two syllables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor04 Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:10 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:10 AM No. If there's a disyllabic complement, the object goes between the two syllables. I'm not saying I'm an expert in Chinese grammar, but I'm pretty sure the one I wrote was right, and I asked one of my Chinese friends and they said that 他从书包里拿出一本书来 is wrong. Maybe someone else can comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:43 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:43 AM I asked one of my Chinese friends and they said that 他从书包里拿出一本书来 is wrong. Maybe someone else can comment? With over 9 million hits, Google certainly suggests that such a construction is valid. I would be interested in hearing your Chinese friend's comments on the examples returned from that search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:47 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:47 AM I agree! anonymoose is spot on! This is probably the most 口语 way of saying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted October 19, 2009 at 07:29 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 07:29 AM No. If there's a disyllabic complement, the object goes between the two syllables. This is not an absolute rule but a strong tendency. It's not wrong to have the object follow a disyllabic complement, such as 起来. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted October 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM I asked one of my Chinese friends and they said that 他从书包里拿出一本书来 is wrong. Maybe someone else can comment?The sentence is not wrong but the tendency is not to split the complement phrase when the object noun phrase (一本书 in this example) is a long one. How long is "long" is of course relative to different speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 19, 2009 at 02:08 PM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 02:08 PM This is not an absolute rule but a strong tendency. It's not wrong to have the object follow a disyllabic complement, such as 起来. In other situations, maybe, (for example, with personal pronouns), but I think for the kind of sentence under consideration, it would be strange not to split the disyllabic complement. I'm not a native speaker, but it goes quite against my 语感 to say it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artem Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:22 PM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:22 PM Actually, they are both very correct grammatically. With complex directional compliments (the ones that end in 来 and 去) it works like this: If the object is a place/location, then it absolutely has to go between the two characters of the compliment. If it's any other object, it can go between them or after. Depending on where you are in China you may here one or the other. I feel like putting a phrase with a measure word or modifier between the two compliments breaks the rhythm of the sentence. It sounds much more pleasant to put the object after 来、去. 他从书包里拿出一本书来 doesn't sound as flowing as 他从书包里拿出来一本书 Here's a quote out of my chinese grammar book for reference: "带复合趋向补语的动词之后，如果有标示处所的宾语，宾语一定要放在“来、去”之前。 “如果宾语是表示一般事物的词或短语，则可以放在”来、去“之前，也可以放在”来、去“之后。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:58 PM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 03:58 PM Well, Google gives the following: 8 hits for "从包里拿出来书" 463000 hits for "从包里拿出书来" So I know which one I'll be saying in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artem Posted October 19, 2009 at 04:06 PM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 04:06 PM Well, Google gives the following:8 hits for "从包里拿出来书" 463000 hits for "从包里拿出书来" So I know which one I'll be saying in the future. Like I said, if there is a measure word it is best to put it after the compliment. The example you just posted is different from the one discussed earlier. The one earlier had a measure word. Google, "从包里拿出一本书来" (49,600 results) and "从包里拿出来一本书" (101,000). Without the measure word, I agree it sounds much better as "从包里拿出书来" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 19, 2009 at 04:11 PM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 04:11 PM Yes. I was thinking about the OP's original sentence which didn't have a measure word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor04 Posted October 20, 2009 at 12:06 AM Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 at 12:06 AM Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess 他从书包里拿出来一本书 "feels" right to me. I'm not very good at written Chinese, I've put all my time into spoken Chinese. I guess both are grammatically correct, but this one just flows better in my opinion. Without the measure word I'd say they are both good, but with the measure word and the 来 at the end, the flow just doesn't seem right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted October 20, 2009 at 06:29 AM Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 at 06:29 AM I think taking the measure word as the reason for splitting or not splitting the complement phrase is shooting at the wrong tree, as this doesn't really explain why. I'd recommend looking at post #26 and you'll see the pragmatic justification for not splitting the complement with 一本书 but more readily with 头. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 20, 2009 at 11:00 AM Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 at 11:00 AM Just for the sake of complicating things a bit more, this is what "现代汉语语法教程 A Course for Mandarin Chinese Grammar" (Peking University Press) has to say about directional complements: 第三，带趋向动词的结构的语序如果是单音节趋向动词充当趋向补语，同时后面又有宾语，有一下两种语序: V+O+补语 (1) 他给他送一杯咖啡去。 (2) 他寄了一千块钱来。 V+补语+O (3) 我给他寄去了一千块钱。 (4) 他们公司派来一个高级工程师解决这个技术问题。 如果趋向动词是双音节的，那么就可能有三种语序，即除了以上两种语序外，还有一种语序: V+补语+O+补语 (5) 他从柜子里拿出来一份合同书。 (6) 他从柜子里拿了一份合同书出来。 (7) 他从柜子里拿出一份合同书来。 (8} 门外走进来一个楚楚动人的姑娘。 (9) 门外走进一个楚楚动人的姑娘来。 (10) 爸爸从图书馆为我借回来一本福尔摩斯的小说。 (11) 爸爸从图书馆为我借了一本福尔摩斯的小说回来。 (12) 爸爸从图书馆为我借回一本福尔摩斯的小说来。 So, unfortunately, there is no "one way fits all" way of using directional (and also other) complements. Which one to use in a specific sentence will depend not only on grammar, but also stylistic considerations, as others have already mentioned. As an aside, it is also interesting to note how the position of the complements influences the use of 了. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted October 20, 2009 at 12:45 PM Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 at 12:45 PM (5) 他从柜子里拿出来一份合同书。(6) 他从柜子里拿了一份合同书出来。 (7) 他从柜子里拿出一份合同书来。 (8} 门外走进来一个楚楚动人的姑娘。 (9) 门外走进一个楚楚动人的姑娘来。 (10) 爸爸从图书馆为我借回来一本福尔摩斯的小说。 (11) 爸爸从图书馆为我借了一本福尔摩斯的小说回来。 (12) 爸爸从图书馆为我借回一本福尔摩斯的小说来。 Examples 7, 9 and 12 look very unlikely to me but I'd be interested to hear native speakers' verdicts. (Note that "verdicts" is written in the plural ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 20, 2009 at 01:22 PM Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 at 01:22 PM Examples 7, 9 and 12 look very unlikely to me Unfortunately the book doesn't give any information on relative frequency of usage of the various possibilities. I tried another Google search using the structures in sentences 5, 6 and 7: (5) "拿出来一份合同书": 0 hits (6) "拿了一份合同书出来": 1 hit (7) "拿出一份合同书来": 6 hits I also tried the same structures, but replacing "一份合同书" with just "一本书" to increase the number of hits: (5) "拿出来一本书": 587,000 hits (6) "拿了一本书出来": 1,330,000 hits (7) "拿出一本书来": 10,200,000 hits It seems that the structure in sentence (7) is the most frequent, though the other two are also not infrequently used. I would also be interested to hear any opinions from native speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted October 20, 2009 at 01:45 PM Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 at 01:45 PM (5) 他从柜子里拿出来一份合同书。(6) 他从柜子里拿了一份合同书出来。 (7) 他从柜子里拿出一份合同书来。 (8} 门外走进来一个楚楚动人的姑娘。 (9) 门外走进一个楚楚动人的姑娘来。 (10) 爸爸从图书馆为我借回来一本福尔摩斯的小说。 (11) 爸爸从图书馆为我借了一本福尔摩斯的小说回来。 (12) 爸爸从图书馆为我借回一本福尔摩斯的小说来。 7 and 12 sounds fine to me. 9 is somewhat unusual but not totally unacceptable, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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