为什么会有星星 - help me understand 会有 in this sentence.

[mirgcire]

How can you say that Barry Farber's method isn't very useful? He speaks over 25 languages and Chinese was one of the first ones he learned.

I read Farber's book a couple years ago and found it unenlightening. It is basically a collection of relatively obvious suggestions about how to learn a language: make your own flash cards, read everything you can, find people to practice with, marry or date someone who speaks the language. As I recall there was no theoretical basis for his suggestions, he just had a bunch of tips.

In general I think polyglots, such as Barry Farber and Steve Kaufmann are of limited credibility. These guys are fluent in a half dozen languages due to the fact that they are uniquely gifted individuals. And because they are so unique they unlikely to have much insight into the difficulties confronting unremarkable people - such as myself. Someone who started learning their first foreign language at the age of 50 and actually achieved fluency would hold a lot more credibility with me.

There are tons of methods and theories out there, but it all comes down to one thing: practice. Success at learning is directly proportional to the suitability of your practice material and the amount of time you spend on it. Materials are books, friends, television, games, classes, flashcards, or anything else that exposes you to the language. If the material is too difficult you won't understand it. If it is too easy you will not advance. If it is suitable, then the more time you spend with it the greater your improvement

Classes can be good if you can find a good teacher. Classes should help you to broaden your understanding of the language and give you a good basis for continued self-study. But classes are only useful up to a point and after that it is necessary to search out new activities and materials - and the suitability of these materials will change over time. The effectiveness of any method depends on a number of factors including, how much time you have available to study, whether you are living among people who speak the target language, level of motivation, what type of learner you are, and your current level, just to name a few.

So, to the OP, I say: if it feels like it is working, keep doing it, but don't forget to experiment around to try other things that might work better.

[Mugi]

Getting back to the original question, I beg to differ with renzhe's assertions below.

Basically, you can't drop 会 in this sentence because it would be incomplete.

Actually, it means exactly "Why are there stars?".

为什么有星星? is equally valid, however there is a distinction in meaning.

为什么有星星? means "Why are there stars?", whereas 为什么会有星星? is closer to the OP's translation, "How is it that stars exist?".

A subtle, and perhaps not so important, difference, but a difference nonetheless.

[HashiriKata]

a collection of relatively obvious suggestions

Put your meaning to them to make them unique and personal. Else, there are no miracles...

A subtle, and perhaps not so important, difference, but a difference nonetheless.

See also post #9 in this theread: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/320-chinese-armors16

[webmagnets]

为什么有星星? means "Why are there stars?", whereas 为什么会有星星? is closer to the OP's translation, "How is it that stars exist?".

I like this one: "how is it that stars exist?" It fits the context best.

Could it even better be translated as "Why is it possible that stars exist?" OR "How is it possible that stars exist?"

I have the original English book that the Chinese was translated from. The English says "What are the stars made of?"

The context:

"HAVE you ever noticed the way children ask questions? Many start asking as soon as they learn to speak. With wide, eager eyes, they look up at you and ask such things as: Why is the sky blue? What are the stars made of?

chinese version:

"你留意到儿童都爱发问吗? 很多孩子一学会说话就开始发问. 他们抬起头来, 睁大眼睛看着你, 热切的问: 为什么天空是蓝色的? 为什么会有星星?"

[imron]

That is not an accurate direct translation and is probably the translator taking some liberty and substituting the original question in English with a similar question but possibly one that is more commonly asked by Chinese children.

[rob07]

I am attempting to use Barry Farber's technique where you take a paragraph of chinese and look up every word you don't know. Then you try to make sense of it.

I gave this a go back when I was learning to read. When I tried it, I knew about 800 Chinese characters (not really very many) and had a book of Lu Xun short stories (extremely difficult for learners) in both Chinese and English. At the time I had personal reasons for wanting to do something ridiculously difficult for days on end. I got through 2 and a half stories before stopping. It did feel rewarding and I felt like I was learning a lot from it but ultimately it was just too difficult.

When you say that Chinese isn't a collection of words, but a language, are you trying to distinguish Chinese from other languages? I learned Spanish fluently and this was one of my principal methods. Are you trying to say that Chinese is different than other languages? Are you saying that Spanish is more like a collection of words?

I haven't learned any other language but I'm pretty sure it is much harder to try this with Chinese than Spanish for a Westerner. Spanish is definitely more like a collection of words, because for starters it has words, and Chinese doesn't, at least not in the same sense. As you probably already know, individual Chinese characters are often not equivalent to English or Spanish words and the location of boundaries between groups of characters that correspond to words in English is not obvious on the printed page (or in some cases clear to native speakers). Chinese grammar isn't all that difficult to understand when you read about in a textbook, but I think it can sometimes be very difficult to reverse engineer it from an unbroken string of characters on a page.

[Kenny同志]

我想说的是，中文有一点不像英文，那就是英文不讲究音韵，中文讲究，通俗地讲，就是中文要念得顺口。我们可以说：为什么会有星星？ 或者，为什么有星星呢？又或者，为什么有星星？ 这三句话表达的意思都一样，是很地道的中文，之所以有些字的出入，多半是由于说话人的习惯不同，如此而已。在”为什么会有星星“这句话中，我并不认为”会“字有何意义，可能仅是为了凑成一个双音词“会有”而已。还有，就是，这里的“会”绝不是“可能”的意思。

why are there stars?

why do stars exist?

我认为这两句都是好的英文译文。

Maybe it should have been written in English.

I should say one difference between Chinese and English is that the English language doesn’t require 音韵, but the other does, that is, Chinese should and in some cases is required to sound smooth in utterance. A native Chinese speaker may say, “为什么会有星星？or, 为什么有星星呢？or 为什么有星星？” All these versions are good Chinese. The fact that the characters of these lines vary in number is, mostly probably, due to people’s habits, and that is it. I do not think there is any significance of the character 会, except that it functions with the next character 有 to make the whole sentence sound more smooth. In addition, here, 会 doesn’t in any way carry the meaning of “possibility”.

Of the above mentioned English translations,

Why are there stars?

Why do stars exist?

How is it that stars exist?

I think all these are exactly what the Chinese speaker intended to say.

[renzhe]

You have to love Chinese. It's often very difficult to pinpoint what exactly a word does, as this thread shows.

[James Johnston]

会 doesn’t in any way carry the meaning of “possibility”.

Of the above mentioned English translations,

Why are there stars?

Why do stars exist?

How is it that stars exist?

I think all these are exactly what the Chinese speaker intended to say.

I would have thought all three of those English translations include the implicit meaning of 'possibility'.

[Kenny同志]

I do not get your point, James. Are you saying that 会 here implies probability? If so, I disagree because stars are there; it is a fact. And what the speaker questioned was the reason how it came into being, not what's about its probability.

[Artem]

He said "possibility," not "probability." Two words that aren't always related.

It's like asking "Why is it possible to have stars?" Obviously, they exist, but you are questioning why it's possible. James points out accurately that 会 is used often when possibility is in involved.

Personally literally, I would translate it as "Why is it possible to have stars?" Of course, in English that sounds too scientific, rather than poetic, but in Chinese it works well.

I don't think it's hard to explain 会 in this sentence. It really just implies possibility. Like someone mentioned about the weather "会下雨" can also be understood as it's possible that it will rain today.

It's a fairly common usage of 会.

[Artem]

I edited my post above, I hope that helps understand his point.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks for your explanation, Artem. Yes, I admit it, in the online dictionary there is an entry that states 会 carries the meaning of possibility, but there are lingual phenomena to which dictionaries are unable to give a satisfactory answer. Simply take the words会下雨that you just posted for example; I don’t think it implies possibility, rather, I firmly believe it merely serves to indicate the future tense. I will explain. For example, we Chinese often say 别担心，他一定会来的. The structure of this daily sentence is almost the same as 会下雨. If 会 means “possible here, then the Chinese I just came up with would itself be paradoxical and more than 1 billion native Chinese speakers would be wrong. The sentence “你会来吗?”, when rendered into English, “will you come?” will be fully justified; it is the same with 会下雨吗？(will it rain?)

Of course, the meaning of a word depends on the particular context it is in. As for the sentence “为什么会有星星?” , I would rather believe 会 is there for 语气purpose. Consider two remarks a person expresses at an unexpected visit：你怎么来了？ And 你怎么会来？. Except for a slight difference in tone, both remarks intended at the same thing. Can you say that 会 suggest possibility? And if so please give me your reason or reasons.

Edited October 15, 2009 at 05:12 AM by kenny2006woo

[Artem]

For example, we Chinese often say 别担心，他一定会来的. The structure of this daily sentence is almost the same as 会下雨. If 会 means “possible here, then the Chinese I just came up with would itself be paradoxical and more than 1 billion native Chinese speakers would be wrong.

It's not paradoxical, note that you added 一定 in front of 会. 会 doesn't always mean possibility, it's one of the meanings, it has other meanings too. In your example, modified, it means "definitely will."

The sentence “你会来吗?”, when rendered into English, “will you come?” will be fully justified; it is the same with 会下雨吗？(will it rain?)

These two examples clear carry connotation of possibility. You are asking will something happen, it's possible it won't happen.

Of course, the meaning of a word depends on the particular context it is in. As for the sentence “为什么会有星星?” , I would rather believe 会 is there for 语气purpose. Consider two remarks a person expresses at an unexpected visit：你怎么来了？ And 你怎么会来？. Except for a slight difference in tone, both remarks intended at the same thing.

Those two example don't necessarily mean the same thing. I mean you can say them both intending the same thing, but 你怎么来了？can have other meanings too.

Think of it as “为什么有星星?” ---> why are there stars?

while, “为什么会有星星?” ----> why would there be stars?

It can be the same, but often it can carry different meanings in both English and Chinese. This is why context is important when translating words with multiple meanings.

EDIT: Here's a definition and examples from Contemporary Standard Chinese Dictionary (as accessed on nciku.com). I hope this helps understand it better.

13. 动 表示有可能实现(可以单独回答问题)

只要坚持下去，你会成功的

他会不会来？会。

Notice the similarity between your example "别担心，他一定会来的" and the first example in the dictionary "只要坚持下去，你会成功的" except for the key 一定 modifier

I think the confusion is coming from thinking of 会 as English "will," they aren't always equal, actually most of the time they aren't equal. Usage of 会 as future indicator is actually not too common in Chinese.

Edited October 14, 2009 at 06:34 PM by Artem

[Mugi]

Why are there stars?

Why do stars exist?

How is it that stars exist?

I think all these are exactly what the Chinese speaker intended to say.

The problem is that all three of these English questions differ, either in terms of emphasis, nuance or actual meaning. The third question is specifically inquiring about the process of the existence of stars - what forces are at play that allow stars to exist? (Or perhaps in a more childish fashion, where do stars come from?) This is the difference between having the 会 and not having it. 为什么有星星? is best translated as "Why are there stars?" - both the Chinese and the English can be interpreted to be inquiring about the purpose of their existence, or more loosely the process involved in their coming into existence. Adding the 会 limits the inquiry to the latter meaning, irrespective of the intention of the utterer.

Often native speakers will claim that certain utterances have exactly the same meaning. However, such claims are usually the result of insufficient thought into the matter, or insufficient understanding of the subject matter.

[anonymoose]

I think part of the confusion with relating the meaning of 会 to "possibility" is that both the English "possibility" and the Chinese 会 have several meanings which cannot all be mapped onto one another. Firstly, let's consider "possibility".

Three understandings of possibility are:

1) have the ability to do something; have the right conditions for something to happen

2) have the opportunity to do something; have the will to do something

3) have a probability of something happening

The difference is that the first depends on objective existence of conditions (whether the laws of physics allow something to happen or not), whereas the second depends on subjective will and restrictions (whether you wish to do something or not, whether you have the permission to do something or not, and so on). The last is different, because it is not directly related to objective or subjective conditions, but rather, given that the necessary conditions exist, the whether an event will take place or not.

For example, when we ask "How is possible that stars exist?", what we are really asking is, "What are the physical processes that allowed stars to form and exist?". Obviously, stars are not conscious beings, so there is no question of will or other subjective restriction.

On the other hand, when we ask "Will you come?", the possibility is of the second kind. In other words, what we are really asking is "Do you intend to come?" or "Do you have the opportunity or will to come?". Of course, in this sentence, we are not enquiring about objective physical possibility.

When we enquire "Will it rain?", the necessary conditions for it to rain already exist. We are just enquiring about the possibility that the event will actually take place. Also, when we say "I will come", we are stating the intention to come (the choice has already been made, and in the mind of the speaker, the event taking place has changed from probable to certain).

Now let's think about the meanings of 会 in Chinese.

1) In a sentence such as "为什么会有星星？", the 会 here corresponds to the objective possibility in English as described above. There is no restriction on the time frame since the objective possibility doesn't depend on being in the past, present or future. (In other words, the laws of physics don't change with time.)

2) In a sentence such as "你会来吗？" the 会 here corresponds to the subjective possibility in English as described above. Usually sentences such as this must refer to the future, since they depend on some choice being made. As soon as the event moves into the past, it can no longer be changed, and moves from being a subjective possibility to an objective fact. Therefore a question such as "你怎么会来呢？" becomes objective.

3) "明天会下雨吗？". Here, the enquiry is about probability, and again necessarily refers to the future. [sometimes in English, we say "It possibly may rain tomorrow", but here the "possibly" doesn't refer to existance of necessary physical conditions or subjective will, but rather means "there is a probability that...".]. Likewise, if we say "我会来", we are just asserting that the probability of "me coming" is full, or is certain, in the mind of the speaker.

So to summarize, translating 会 into English, we first have to be clear about what the 会 actually means in Chinese first before finding the appropriate equivalent in English. If we just blindly say 会 means "will" or "how is it possible...?" without considering the context, then the translation will often be inaccurate.

Edited October 15, 2009 at 05:48 AM by anonymoose

[Kenny同志]

I am sorry, Artem, but I am not convinced by your post. You seem trying to associate the quality of futurity with possibility. When a native Chinese speaker says我会来, he clearly means that he will come, not that it is possible that he will come. Inferred from your theory, the speaker would be implying that there is possibility that he won’t come; this is certainly not what the speaker intended at. And I think why you think 会 has the connotation of possibility in this particular context is that you might think everything in the future is uncertain and thus involves possibility.

I can provide another in-point sentence 法院会在周五开庭审理该案件. Here the court is certainly scheduled to go about the case on Friday, not that it will possibly do the thing on that day.

PS: the quality of futurity and possibility do have something in common, but what they emphasize is different.

[Artem]

Like I mentioned earlier, possibility is only one of the meanings of 会. Sometimes it has other meanings. I'm not saying it always has the meaning of possibility In fact 会 has around 15 different meanings, depending on context.

I think an important point to note about the possibility I'm referring to is it has nothing to do with probability. It doesn't mean "with what certainty will this happen."

The meaning of 会 in your last example and the meaning of it in the original post are not the same, so I'm not sure how it's applicable to this discussion. I won't disagree with you there, in your last example the 会 is pretty definite.

[Kenny同志]

lol. I surrender, but I reserve my view.

[HashiriKata]

lol. I surrender, but I reserve my view.

No need to say "surrender"! , and yes hold on to your view. You're on the right path and I'll give you some proper support later (But for the moment I'll need to keep my head on something else as it's still a Friday morning in my place).