为什么会有星星 - help me understand 会有 in this sentence.

[jiangping]

Here are some other interesting usages of 會 I have come across recently.

1. (ordering in a restaurant)

顧客: 這會辣嗎？Is this (dish) spicy?

服務員: 會 Yes

2. (near the top on a ferris wheel)

朋友A: 你會懼高嗎？Are you scared of heights?

朋友B: 不會 No

3. (in a discussion about tones in Hokkien and Cantonese)

老師: 廣東話的聲調會更復雜一點. Cantonese tones are even more complicated (than Hokkien tones).

學生: 會嗎？Really?

[HashiriKata]

Thank you jiangping, for so conveniently providing some examples that I can use to start my post with

1. (ordering in a restaurant)

顧客: 這會辣嗎？Is this (dish) spicy?

服務員: 會 Yes

2. (near the top on a ferris wheel)

朋友A: 你會懼高嗎？Are you scared of heights?

朋友B: 不會 No

3. (in a discussion about tones in Hokkien and Cantonese)

老師: 廣東話的聲調會更復雜一點. Cantonese tones are even more complicated (than Hokkien tones).

學生: 會嗎？Really?

I'll call the use of 会 in these examples as the primary use of 会. In this use, 会 always has something to do with possibility in one way or another that pertains to the subject-matter, such as 這 in example 1, 你 in 2 and 廣東話的聲調 in 3 above. To put it another way, 会 is primarily used to describe the objective world.

There is yet another use of 会, let's call it the " derivative use" of 会. In this use, 会 has very little to do with the possibility in the objective world, but is only a device that the speaker uses to project his views and attitudes onto what he is describing. Let me illustrate the distinction with some simple examples:

1a. "Hashiri Kata can't be a murderer"

Suppose that someone looked at me and for some reason, came to such a judgment. Then "can't" here is used to describe me, the subject-matter.

In a different scenario, where everyone says I'm a murderer because I did kill someone. This is a fact and is not just a possibility. However, my mother for some reason can't believe and can't accept that I'm a murderer, so she said: "No, I can't believe Hashiri Kata is a murderer", which can be transformed into

1b. "No, Hashirikata can't be a murderer"

Here, we can see the "can't" in 1b is of a very different nature from the "can't" in 1a. The "can't" in "I can't believe" (speaker's attitude) was somehow transposed to " Hashirikata can't be" (which is about the subject-matter). The "can't" in 1b is thus used purely for conveying the speaker's attitude (here the disbelief), unlike the "can't" for describing the possibility in the objective world in 1a. Similarly, when I saw someone did something bad to a child, I could very well say to him: "How could you do such a thing to a child?" Here again, "could", not unlike the question mark in this sentence, is purely a rhetoric device to convey the speaker's attitude, and not used for the purpose of indicating possibility in the outside world.

To get back to 会 in Chinese, you can see a clear parallel:

When you see some marvelous occurrence in the sky above, you may then say something like:

为什么会有这样的现象？which is simply another way of saying 我不会想象 + 有这样的现象.

More examples of the derivative use of 会 were given in the other thread on 会 that I already mentioned, and copied here for convenience of reference:

2b. 她没有想到，一个小时以前,她会和这个刚认识的男人一起走进她的房间。

3b. 她一边爬上车去，坐在车夫身旁，一边很想知道为什么会有这么好的运气找到她的门上来。

(She mounted beside the coachman, wondering why this good fortune had happened to her. )

4b. 为什么会有那么多的人想要完美？

(Why is it that so many people think that being perfect is the way to go?)

And of course, the title sentence of this thread: 为什么会有星星!

In conclusion I should say that it is the mix-up between the primary use 会 (for describing matters in the world) and the derivative use of会 (for conveying the speaker’s own views & feelings) that confuses us.

Well, I've now had my say and I'm also exhausted with the long week, so I should say 晚安 to everyone and go to bed now

Edited October 17, 2009 at 07:27 AM by HashiriKata

[webmagnets]

This reminds me of the subjunctive in Spanish.

It expresses doubt where the English mind doesn't think there is doubt.

For instance: "I hope it rains tomorrow." - The English mind would assume that this is a statement without doubt, because it is without a doubt, I hope it. However the verb "to rain" is expressed in the subjunctive. "Espero que llueva mañana." (note: "llueva" instead of "lluve")

I think HashiriKata's scenario 1b is actually expressing possibility in the negative, which is still possibility. "It is not possible that he is a murder."

p.s. - please, let's not start a debate about my explanation of Spanish thinking.

[Altair]

I am attempting to use Barry Farber's technique where you take a paragraph of chinese and look up every word you don't know. Then you try to make sense of it.

I often follow a method like this and it has served my quite well; however, I also use some traditional methods and have studied a lot of languages. One thing that has been different for me about studying Chinese as opposed to other languages is that I have spent almost as much time unlearning things as learning things. I think that the sciences of linguistics and grammar are not as advanced when it comes to languages such as Chinese where it is hard to separate grammar from lexis (i.e., word choice).

As for 会, I think my understanding is like Hashirakata's, but I come at it a little differently.

For my learning style, it is important to ask and answer "why" something is the case and to frame an overarching, but ever-adjusting "theory" that can be used in other situations. I think of the core meaning of 会 as meaning to "come together." This accounts for the origin of the character (a top coming together with a pot) and the frequent literal meaning of "meet" or "meeting" as in 开会. I then account for the derivative meaning as follows.

他会说法语

Things come together so that he speaks French.

He knows how to speak French.

他会来

Things are coming together with respect to his coming.

He is sure to come.

He will come.

我没想到你会来

I didn't think things would come together with respect to your coming.

I didn't think you would come.

1. (ordering in a restaurant)

顧客: 這會辣嗎？Is this (dish) spicy?

服務員: 會 Yes

2. (near the top on a ferris wheel)

朋友A: 你會懼高嗎？Are you scared of heights?

朋友B: 不會 No

3. (in a discussion about tones in Hokkien and Cantonese)

老師: 廣東話的聲調會更復雜一點. Cantonese tones are even more complicated (than Hokkien tones).

學生: 會嗎？Really?

In the above sentences, I think that 會 corresponds to what some languages would express with a habitual tense.

這會辣嗎？

Do things come together so that this dish is spicy?

Is this dish normally spicy?

Is this dish spicy?

你會懼高嗎？

Do things come together so that you are afraid of heights?

Are you generally afraid of heights?

Are you afraid of heights?

廣東話的聲調會更復雜一點

Things come together so that Cantonese tones are even more complicated.

Cantonese tones are generally even more complicated.

Cantonese tones tend to be more complicated.

Cantonese tones can be (and are) even more complicated.

Cantonese tones are even more complicated.

While 会/會 can be omitted from some or all of these sentences, it leaves the resulting sentence with a meaning that is even vaguer than the short English equivalents, since the Chinese will not express any tense or aspect very clearly. As a result, adding 会/會 makes the scope of the sentences much clearer.

[muyongshi]

I think my dictionary's explanation hits it pretty spot on: 表示有可能实现

[Artem]

Yep, that's the exact definition I said in post 34 on last page.

Thus, I agree.

[muyongshi]

Ha... sorry... been in and out in this conversation. Must have missed that part in the process.

[webmagnets]

Thank you Altair. I think that explains perfectly how one word that we translate differently for different situations can be thought of as one idea for the Chinese native speakers.

I don't care if what you said is correct. Just like I don't care if the theory of relativity is correct. It just fits too well.

[Mugi]

Altair, see my post here for the usage of 會 in the 這會辣嗎 and other two examples - this usage is borrowed straight from Taiwanese.