Tianjin Dialect Wikipedia entry

[XiaoXi]

I was reading about the Tianjin dialect on Wikipedia to see what the differences are supposed to be and I have to say I disagree with almost the entire entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_dialect

For example, the four numbered tonal differences are not correct in my experience of Tianjin. Also the point 2 水果 |shuǐ guǒ| is pronounced /shuíguǒ/ is the correct way of saying it in standard Beijing mandarin is it not??

The point about the missing retroflex consonants I only heard with two people in Tianjin and both were of the older generation so I can't imagine its common. One pronounced sh like s as in Taiwan style and the other pronounced zh as z. For the most part I did not experience this though.

[flywhc]

Agree. That page must be written by somebody doesn't know Tianjin dialect and even his Mandarin is not good.

The 3rd tone changing rule is well known (but not well defined in most text book) in Mandarin Chinese.

I feel that Tian1jin1 should be pronunced as Tian4jing1 in Tianjin dialect.

And different places in Tianjin has different accent too.

[Hofmann]

Then be bold and edit the article so that you like it. If you think people are likely to oppose, then post an explanation in the discussion page before editing, so that when/if your edit gets people's attention, there's an explanation already there.

[wushijiao]

Is the first tone in Tianjinhua really 21? I haven't been there, but I find that almost impossible to believe...

[xiaocai]

Is the first tone in Tianjinhua really 21? I haven't been there, but I find that almost impossible to believe...

Why? I don't know what exactly 21 means here but the 1st tone in Tianjing dialect is quite distinct and different from standard mandarin. It sounds more like a 3rd tone in standard mandarin to me.

[Don_Horhe]

I was wondering if any of you living in Tianjin could shed some light on a Tianjinhua matter. Do they tend to pronounce, for example 严, as [i̯ɑn] instead of [i̯ɛn]? The thing is that I know only one person from Tianjin who occasionally does this, so I can't say if it's something she does or it's something people from Tianjin do.

[wushijiao]

Why? I don't know what exactly 21 means here but the 1st tone in Tianjing dialect is quite distinct and different from standard mandarin. It sounds more like a 3rd tone in standard mandarin to me.

Well, it very well for all that I know. It just seems amazing that the 1st tone could differ so much from Beijing's.

[imron]

I don't know what exactly 21 means here

Picture a tone scale from 1 to 5, with 1 being the lowest and 5 being the highest. In standard mandarin the first tone is 55, that is, it begins at 5 and ends at 5. 21 would mean it began at 2 and ended at 1. That would make it a low, falling tone rather than standard Mandarin's high flat tone.

[XiaoXi]

I think anyone from around 30s or younger will speak pretty standard Beijing Mandarin. That's because they can't speak any dialect in schools and have to learn standard mandarin. I do notice some peculiar accent pronunciations even from young people though. For example any word that is íng sounds like oong in a rising tone rather than with the ing sound it should have.

Regarding editing the Wikipedia page, while it is certainly wrong, I wouldn't feel I have the knowledge to actually rewrite it myself.

[Guest realmayo]

In Wuhan too the putonghua first tone becomes a 21: a very slight rise and often quite elongated vowel.

EDIT: as Imron points out below, it's not 21 at all, but 45.

Edited October 17, 2009 at 05:50 AM by realmayo

[imron]

a very slight rise

21 would be a very slight fall.

[Guest realmayo]

Oops ... you're right, I have my scale the wrong way around ... should be 45 ... and so not very relevant to this thread after all!

[XiaoXi]

Well, it very well for all that I know. It just seems amazing that the 1st tone could differ so much from Beijing's.

That's because it doesn't. I don't know where xiaocai got that information but certainly my wife doesn't say 1st tone like that (she's from Tianjin obviously) and neither did anyone else I met in Tianjin. If you think about its totally ridiculous. If everyone said 1st tone as third tone then nobody would have any idea what anyone was talking about! I think there may be some truth to the 这么 zeme thing though. If she says 怎么这么 fast they really sound both like zenme to me but she insists she's not doing that.

[xiaocai]

@ XiaoXi:

I am talking about the Tianjin dialect spoken mostly by older generations from the centre of the city, which is much more than mandarin with a little bit of Tianjin accent. And it is extremely normal that you don't understand certain dialects in China. My friend has stayed in Fuzhou for 6 years and he can barely follow the conversation when his colleagues start to chat in Fuzhouhua, and please bear in mind that he is a native chinese.

If you are still not convinced, there are the proofs:

http://www.youku.com/playlist_show/id_1859460.html

[roddy]

I find it wonderful the way a Chinese person can marry a foreigner and suddenly become a trustworthy authority on all linguistic and cultural issues. Is there some kind of special training course?

What's been said about the first tone rang a bell, so I went looking. From here, which in turn seems to have taken it from a book.

. . .而天津话的阴平读音呈现出低而略带下降的调值，音程短促，是四声中最低的声调。

So low and slightly falling - I've never actually heard it, but I can see how it could be heard as a third tone / 2-1.

[XiaoXi]

I am talking about the Tianjin dialect spoken mostly by older generations from the centre of the city, which is much more than mandarin with a little bit of Tianjin accent.

I only came across one person who spoke mandarin a bit different and he has the typical sh as s problem. There may be some Tianjin dialect but its rare like I said and only in older generations.

And it is extremely normal that you don't understand certain dialects in China. My friend has stayed in Fuzhou for 6 years and he can barely follow the conversation when his colleagues start to chat in Fuzhouhua, and please bear in mind that he is a native chinese.

Well I don't know much about Fuzhou but it seems they have a dialect whereas in Tianjin they just speak mandarin. Maybe they speak it with a bit of an accent but then so do people in Beijing.

I find it wonderful the way a Chinese person can marry a foreigner and suddenly become a trustworthy authority on all linguistic and cultural issues. Is there some kind of special training course?

Nope, it just requires having lived in that city all your life. In any case this has nothing to do with being 'a trustworthy authority on all linguistic and cultural issues' its just about the accent in Tianjin so I've not idea why you said that unless you're referring to someone else. Don't you know anything about the accents in the city you're from? I'd wager you not only know about your own city's accents but probably many other cities too.

[xiaocai]

@ XiaoXi:

It doesn't mean that they don't have a dialect just because you have not come across anyone in Tianjin who speaks it. If you care to spend a little bit of time reading roddy's link and it pretty much explains all about these dialect/accent matters. I think all we wanted to is just to explain why there is difference between your own experience and the wiki entry about Tianjin dialect. But if you want to insist on your own opinions, that's perfectly fine and I think there will be no more need of discussion.