Difference in Mandarin Accents

[starryskies]

I still remember on the first day I started an official Chinese class in a summer college program my teacher heard me speak and commented on how I don't roll my tongue when pronouncing words. Like for 是 I would say it more along the lines of "si" instead of "shi". When I asked my mom if it was weird she said it was only because I spoke mandarin with a guangzhou accent since my mom's side of the family is all cantonese and I was raised by my mom. The only reason I speak mandarin is so I can talk to my dad (he's FJ). I wanted to know what the differences are for different mandarin accents. Is it really hard to tell? My mom can listen to someone and tell where that person is from but so far I can only distinguish the Beijing accent due to its many "r" sounds.

[sukitc]

I notice that Taiwanese pronounce many words with the 2nd tone, rather than the 1st tone in putonghua. Examples like xing1qi2 (week) and wei2 (a little).

[doraemon]

I'm not an expert on dialects, but generally people from northern China tend to roll their tongues a lot more than southerners. As you said with the pronounciation of the word "是", if someone pronounces it as "si", then he/she is most likely a southerner, usually Guangdong, Fujian and places around there (although it's quite hard to tell nowadays since many people in those provinces can speak the "correct" Mandarin you hear everyday on the news etc). Other differences include the pronunciations for the "ch" (e.g 吃) and "zh" (e.g 知) sounds.

The Shanghai accent is quite obvious to detect, but it's really hard to describe what it sounds like. Beijing and 东北 Mandarin is probably the closest to perfect Mandarin, but some Beijingers and 东北 people tend to exaggerate the "r" sound and roll their tongues a lot. I personally think the 东北 accent sounds the best (without the exaggerated "r" pronounciations).

I've heard from my Chinese teacher while I was studying Chinese in China last year saying that Taiwanese and Cantonese people don't know the concept of 轻声. For example, in the words 妈妈, 爸爸, 先生, the first word is pronounced with a a flat (no.1) tone, but the second word shouldn't be in correct Mandarin. It should be pronounced with the 5th tone, which is a very light tone, thereby emphasising the first word over the second one. However, Taiwanese and Cantonese people say both words with the flat tone ie. they place equal emphasis on both words, which is alright in Hong Kong and Taiwan, but would sound weird in most parts of the mainland (usually northern parts).

[XiaoXi]

Saying words with an exaggerated rr is not standard mandarin per se but its not literally wrong. But saying 'si' when you should be saying 'shi' is of course wrong because you're saying a completely different word. If not for context I can't imagine people that speak in that way can always be understood. Its certainly easy to spot, even with my limited Chinese I can tell a Taiwanese TV show within about 5 seconds of watching it.

[renzhe]

You will get much better at figuring out accents and dialects as you get more exposure.

Generally, northerners roll their tongues more. This results in a clear distinction between zh, sh ch and z, s, c, but it also results in the -er endings (erhua).

The standard defines that zh, sh, ch should be done with a rolled tongue (unlike z, c, and s), and it also defines a (small) amount of erhua that should be pronounced. The southerners generally struggle with zh, ch, sh and the northerners struggle with using too much erhua.

The standard also defines where the light tone (5th tone) should be used and where not, which varies a lot throughout China, so people from different regions will pronounce this more or less correctly. If I'm not mistaken, speakers of Cantonese often mix up "n" and "l", and there are other issues when speakers of different Chinese dialects learn standard Mandarin and mostly converse with other people from their region, who often make all the same mistakes when speaking standard Mandarin.

All of this results in recognisable accents.

It's not REALLY such a huge deal, most people in China will have some sort of accent. It's good to try to speak according to the standard, and put some effort into fixing mistakes, but ultimately, if you can communicate, it's OK.

[anonymoose]

The Shanghai accent is quite obvious to detect, but it's really hard to describe what it sounds like.

Describing what any accent sounds like is hard, but a few characteristics of Shanghai accented Mandarin are, like other southern dialects, zh- and sh- tend to become z- and s-. Also, often words that rhyme with yi in Mandarin become yie which is pronounced very short with a glottal stop (from Shanghainese influence). Other finals are also often spoken abruptly with a glottal stop, for example 八 is also pronounced somewhat like ba in Shanghainese, but with a very short final, and often Shanghainese speakers will carry this over to Mandarin. However, Shanghainese people's accents can range from very strong (where it becomes difficult to ascertain whether they're actually speaking Mandarin or Shanghainese) to no accent, so it certainly isn't the case that all Shanghainese people speak with the characteristics described above.

Also, apart from accent, dialect can also influence the words people use to express things in Mandarin. For example, when agreeing with something that someone has said, Shanghainese people often say 对的, rather than just 对. There are loads of other examples, though I can't think of any just now.

[wushijiao]

Other finals are also often spoken abruptly with a glottal stop, for example 八 is also pronounced somewhat like ba in Shanghainese, but with a very short final

Yes, that's one of the most distinct features. They also really aspirate P's sometimes (and I think B as well, but I'm not sure). If I'm not mistaken, the average speed of syllables per second is faster in Shanghaiese compared to any other regionalect, and in my opinion, I think that translate into faster speaking when in Putonghua (but maybe that's just my impression).

[XiaoXi]

Describing what any accent sounds like is hard, but a few characteristics of Shanghai accented Mandarin are, like other southern dialects, zh- and sh- tend to become z- and s-.

If you go to study Chinese in Shanghai do they actually teach you to pronounce zh and sh as z and s or do they teach you proper Mandarin?

[anonymoose]

If you go to study Chinese in Shanghai do they actually teach you to pronounce zh and sh as z and s or do they teach you proper Mandarin?

I've only been in advanced classes in Shanghai so they didn't really teach pronunciation at all, but most teachers were not from Shanghai anyway. Generally speaking, I'd say their Mandarin was standard enough for accent not to be an issue to the foreign learner.

[Hofmann]

As close (to Beijing) as Tianjin one can hear zème for 這麼.

[XiaoXi]

I've only been in advanced classes in Shanghai so they didn't really teach pronunciation at all, but most teachers were not from Shanghai anyway. Generally speaking, I'd say their Mandarin was standard enough for accent not to be an issue to the foreign learner.

Well that's good. As long as the teachers speak standard mandarin there's no problem. It doesn't seem to be that way in Taiwan unfortunately.

As close (to Beijing) as Tianjin one can hear zème for 這麼.

True but its actually pretty rare these days. You'll only hear it in older generations and even then its pretty rare. Do you live in Tianjin or have you stayed there for some time? There's another thread about this http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/320-chinese-armors42 although I notice you've already posted in that thread.

Edited October 16, 2009 at 07:02 PM by XiaoXi

[renzhe]

I thought that "zeme" was a correct pronunciation for 这么 in some contexts. Not exactly sure which, but I seem to remember somebody telling me that zheme/zeme were exchangeable.

It would be more interesting if it were always pronounced as "ze" by a speaker, not just in 这么.

EDIT: I've just heard "zeme" in a mainland soap set in Beijing (我的青春谁做主), where people talk either standard Mandarin or have a Beijing accent. So I do believe that both zeme and zheme are accepted in spoken language, even though my dictionaries only list "zheme".

Edited October 16, 2009 at 09:58 PM by renzhe

[wushijiao]

I would suggest that although there is an official standard way to pronounce Putonghua, there are also de facto regional standards (as in Taiwan, or southern China). And even if those people consciously know about standard (northern-style) Putonghua, they choose to speak in their de facto regional standard.

[XiaoXi]

I would suggest that although there is an official standard way to pronounce Putonghua, there are also de facto regional standards (as in Taiwan, or southern China). And even if those people consciously know about standard (northern-style) Putonghua, they choose to speak in their de facto regional standard.

If that's true then how is 是 for example written in pinyin by Taiwanese in their de facto standard? Surely not with an H present.

[anonymoose]

People who learn English in the US learn American-accented English. People who learn English in the UK learn British-accented English. People who learn Chinese on the mainland learn mainland-accented Chinese. People who learn Chinese in Taiwan learn Taiwan-accented Chinese. No big deal.

[renzhe]

If that's true then how is 是 for example written in pinyin by Taiwanese in their de facto standard? Surely not with an H present.

There is only one written stanard for pinyin, and yes, they would write it as "sh".

At least they make the distinction when using bopomofo, as not too many Taiwanese use pinyin.

Also, many Taiwanese DO pronounce the difference, but the "sh" softer than in the north, so it might sound the same to an untrained ear. Also, some Taiwanese I've met pronounce it perfectly. Then there are those who really do say "s" for "sh". There is a range of accents, also depending on whether the person is a native speaker of Hokkien or not and whether they are trying to speak properly or not.

If you watch a Taiwanese TV show (there are some in our TV Episode project), you will notice all three cases (hard "sh", soft "sh" and "s").

[morningdew]

i think most chinese teachers put too much emphasis on encouraging their students to speak with the traditional beijing accent. the vast majority of china speaks with a non-beijing accent, so saying 是 as "si“ really isn't a big deal. if anything, a majority of the chinese that you talk to will be more familiar with this brand of pronunciation.

[renzhe]

i think most chinese teachers put too much emphasis on encouraging their students to speak with the traditional beijing accent. the vast majority of china speaks with a non-beijing accent, so saying 是 as "si“ really isn't a big deal. if anything, a majority of the chinese that you talk to will be more familiar with this brand of pronunciation.

All of these people were taught in school to pronounce 是 as "shi", though.

Saying "shi" is not "Beijing accent", it is correct Standard Mandarin.

You're right that it isn't really a big deal, though.

[XiaoXi]

i think most chinese teachers put too much emphasis on encouraging their students to speak with the traditional beijing accent. the vast majority of china speaks with a non-beijing accent, so saying 是 as "si“ really isn't a big deal. if anything, a majority of the chinese that you talk to will be more familiar with this brand of pronunciation.

Maybe its common in the south but I don't think it is in the north. Like Renzhe says, its not Beijing accent to say it like that, its standard mandarin. If it was supposed to be pronounced 'si' then the romanisation would be written that way. Of course they'd have to have changed the real 'si' words to some other form of romanisation too to avoid confusion.

You're right that it isn't really a big deal, though.

I agree its not a big deal unless Chinese learners are actually being taught to say it like that. Which in many cases it seems they are.

[Daan]

If it was supposed to be pronounced 'si' then the romanisation would be written that way. Of course they'd have to have changed the real 'si' words to some other form of romanisation too to avoid confusion.

I'm kind of confused here. First of all, I think the transcription of any word is supposed to be based on its pronunciation, not the other way around. I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by changing the "real" si words to some other form of romanisation. If native speakers pronounce the word the same, why would you want to have a different romanisation? Does that not defeat the idea of having a system to record the way words are pronounced?