Difference in Mandarin Accents

[renzhe]

Suit yourself

[muyongshi]

Jumping in a bit late on this thread...

People in South China use additional tones to differentiate 四si and 十shi. They have 9 to 12 tones instead of 4 tones, and different regions have different tones!

This is not true in Sichuan. Sichuanhua (depending on who you ask) has really only 3 tones. Some argue 4 (other than a neutral tone) but basically they aren't THAT much different than standard, it's just that their are two type of a falling tone. So 4 and 10 the only difference is one is rising and on is falling. I seem to do pretty good with it (maybe more instinct than actual linguistic ability) but even for some locals I know, it's a pain to differentiate.

Sorry I know that was from a few pages ago, but had to throw it in.

OK, hundreds of millions of people don't bother with the "h" in sh, zh, ch. If it was a problem, they would have adapted to solve the problem. The fact that they haven't suggests ... it isn't a problem!

Also, I agree with XiaoXi on this point. It bothers many people, including some native sichuan friends of mine. It doesn't bother many, but many others it does. I think you will find 50/50 on this one, so best to stay away from over generalizations.

[muyongshi]

The world will not break if someone says zi1dao or lao3si1 instead of zhi1dao or lao3shi1. People will not mistake a teacher for a nuclear power plant or a dangerous weed Especially in the presence of context and tones.

And to throw this in here as well. I really agree with Renzhe on this point. Granted my last post said I agreed with XiaoXi that it bothers some people. The operative word is bother. In terms of actually effecting the overall understanding it is more seldom than not. However, it does happen where people get confused. I'd say it's not infrequent but definitely not eh majority of the time.

Take for example the 四/十 debate. if someone in Sichuan said sisi (not sissi- haha) I've never seen anyone except a foreigner get confused. Why? Because the intonation is so clear due to the last syllable.

And I don't know how it is in other parts of China, zi dao is not said in Sichuan, we resort to xiao dei 晓得.

All this talk reminds me of a Jet Li movie where he goes to Cali to find his 师傅 and these mexican guys get their butts saved by him and then they the follow him around from then on calling him si fu. Makes me cringe everytime they way the say it (it's just them, they sounded ridiculous).

[xiaocai]

This is not true in Sichuan. Sichuanhua (depending on who you ask) has really only 3 tones. Some argue 4 (other than a neutral tone) but basically they aren't THAT much different than standard, it's just that their are two type of a falling tone. So 4 and 10 the only difference is one is rising and on is falling. I seem to do pretty good with it (maybe more instinct than actual linguistic ability) but even for some locals I know, it's a pain to differentiate.

Nothing related to the original post but generally speaking Sichuanhua has four to five tones, not including neutral.

[atitarev]

This thread is not going anywhere.

If we look at it from this angle: can we help it that many Chinese mispronounce Mandarin words or pronounce them with the local accent? No, we can't. I agree with Renzhe that it's not a huge problem, even for learners. I hear some Chinese advertising where some Chinese people have a Southern accent, it's instantly recognisable, it's true and can sound cute but it doesn't cause too much trouble.

I talked to a girl from Shenzhen (originally from Guangzhou), she spoke perfect Mandarin but with some accent. I was glad I could understand her and then I thought that it helps to learn the accents as well. Taiwanese movies/TV series are much harder to follow than those made in mainland China, not just because of the accent but I want to learn this as well eventually.

If we can't change the way Chinese speak and force them to speak 标准的普通话, we have to deal with this.

[XiaoXi]

If we can't change the way Chinese speak and force them to speak 标准的普通话, we have to deal with this.

Like I said before, I have no problem with natives speaking like that, it becomes a problem when foreign Chinese learners are taught to speak like that.

[atitarev]

You mean what you said about Taiwan? Well, if that's the way they talk and it's semi-standard there, they can't help but teach this accent to foreigners as well. And foreigners speak the way all Taiwanese speak around them. As others have said there is still a subtle difference in s and sh. I don't think 100% of teachers teach wrong accent to foreign students. I also have recordings - fairy tales and and some stories recorded in Taiwan. They distinguish s/sh and other pairs clearly, although the retroflex sounds are not the same as in standard Mandarin in China. This difference is not always observed and known, it's true.

Another feature - neutral tone does exist in Taiwanese Mandarin for certain words and suffixes and repetitions, some people are sure it doesn't.

[doraemon]

It's kinda frustrating when people make fun of your accent just because it's different from theirs. Basically all of my friends or people I know from school speak Mandarin with quite a strong Guangdong or generally a southern Chinese accent which I sometimes have trouble understanding, and yet they always poke fun at my standard Mandarin dialect .

[calibre2001]

Ok I found a sample southern accent to practice listening to. Don't try to talk like that but just learn to listen to a different accent

Try

Transcript

新加坡共有大小岛屿50多个，地势起伏和缓，主岛新加坡岛的面积占到90%以上。新加坡很多地区都是填海产生，自1950年至今已经约有20%的国土面积由填海产生。

新加坡地处热带，长年受赤道低压带控制，为赤道多雨气候，长夏无冬，气温年温差和日温差小，年平均温度在24摄氏度至34摄氏度之间：最冷月为1月，受来自中国的东北季候风影响，加上低压带的南移，较干燥的东北风会令新加坡的平均低温徘徊在摄氏23至24度左右，而且天色也会比较好；而到了4月至5月这段期间，低压带的北移和东亚大陆高压带的减弱的影响下，气温会有轻微回升，而且雨量也会增多。湿度较高，每日平均相对湿度为84%。降雨充足，也常有雷暴，年均降雨量在2,400毫米左右，每年11月到1月为雨季，雨水较多。此外，新加坡由于在数十年来市区发展迅速，使全国皆受热岛效应影响下，平均温度也比邻近热带城市明显更高。

Edited March 24, 2010 at 11:07 AM by calibre2001

[Shi Tong]

Ehhhhh...

Please recognise the difference between "incorrect", "what is taught in schools" and "what is spoken on the street".

I worry a little when people say that in Taiwan people are taught that "zh/ch/sh/ zi/ci/si" are "the same", because this is completely incorrect.

What DOES happen is that you're taught standard Mandarin in schools, where you even get taught some erhua, and you are taught very carefully the difference between zh/ch/sh/ zi/ci/si, but when people walk onto the street/ meet their friend/ speak to their relatives, some of these sounds are mashed, ESPECIALLY with the older generation.

My wife, from Taiwan, is very careful about her Mandarin, and she pronounces zh/ch/sh/ zi/ci/si very clearly. There are a few words and phrases which have almost become standard, like (我知道) with the pronunciation in the middle being a pretty pointy zi1.

Also, the idea that pronouncing 爸爸 as ba4ba4 is somehow "taught" in Taiwan too, is completely wrong. This word is taught with a qing1sheng1 at the end.

There are more exceptions to this rule in Taiwan than in the mainland (things like 看看 are pronounced kan4kan4), but even the teaching materials in the college that I was taught in teach 看看 with a qing1sheng1 for the second word.

The posted link for someone with a southern accent is clearly a person whose native tongue is Fujianhua/ Taiwanese, because I'm used to hearing some of that in Taiwan. This is the exception to the rule, however, and this would be how someone speaks if they're struggling to kick off an accent, and this accent is so strong I would say it's going as far as incomprehensible.

Oh, and Xiaoxi, I would think that NOBODY is actually intentionally taught like that, BTW. They may pick it up accidently, or they may even have a different accent to listen to, which is less harsh than standard putonghua from a BJ area. This results in an accent, not incorrect zhongwen, which should always be guarded against.

That said, some people CANT pronounce shi4 and pronounce it as si4. Again, this will not result in misunderstanding the person, just an accent.

[calibre2001]

and this accent is so strong I would say it's going as far as incomprehensible.

I think it's only fair for native speakers to make a call on that.

[Shi Tong]

I'll ask my wife then.

[skylee]

I think there is something wrong with the link at #69.

First I can't access it by simply clicking at it. When I copied and pasted it to a browser, a file was opened using windows media player, and I am about 99% sure that what I heard was not Mandarin (I am not a native speaker of Mandarin, I do declare).

[anonymoose]

I am about 99% sure that what I heard was not Mandarin (I am not a native speaker of Mandarin, I do declare).

I'm not a native speaker of mandarin either, but one doesn't need to be a native speaker to tell that is not mandarin.

[Shi Tong]

Sorry, this is definately Taiwanese (fujianhua). I know enough from listening to Taiwanese children's erge to know that.

There can be some confusion because there are some phrases which sound "similar" to Mandarin, since it's a Chinese language- for example, and I will use bastardized pinyin for the kinds of sounds made to make up Taiwanese words:

"Wa4m3zai1" (I dont know, or "wo3bo4zhi1dao4")

"in2wee2", which is the Taiwanese alternative to "in1wei4" (because)

"so2yi2" in Taiwanese sounds a lot like Mandarin for "and so/ so"

"ca1bu4duo1" in Taiwanese is "cha1bu4duo1", or "the difference is not great".

[xiaocai]

I think the clip is in 潮州话, not Taiwanese, even they are kind of similar to each other. I could be completely wrong though since I don't speak either...

Edited March 24, 2010 at 12:07 AM by xiaocai

[calibre2001]

Link fixed. Sorry for that

Here is the 潮州話 monologue with transcription and translation below

潮州話

大家好。我是 mrclub

只是我自1998年以来，头一 p’ai 呾酱zoi 潮州话。

因为我真久无好好呾潮州话，所以如果我有底块呾未准，还是呾唔对，请谅解。

我先自我介绍。我姓洪，新加坡人，今年18岁。祖籍中国普宁，呾个方言是潮州话。我只阵已经无办法呾标准个普宁话。

我只阵是学生，to 新加坡读书。

其实，我也唔知要呾底个 zia 好。哈哈。

我今日就呾到酱块。感谢。

Hello. I am ‘mrclub’.

This is the first time I speak so much Teochew since 1998.

Because I haven’t been speaking Teochew properly for so long, please be understandable if I mispronounce some words or pronounce some words wrongly.

I will introduce myself first. My surname is Ang, Singaporean, aged 18. My ancestral home is at Puning, China, and the dialect I speak is Teochew. I am now unable to speak proper Puning dialect already.

Currently, I am a student studying in Singapore.

In fact, I have no idea what to say today. Haha.

I will end here today. Thank you !

[Shi Tong]

Interesting.. it does sound (to me, as a speaker of crap Taiwanese), so similar to Taiwanese as to almost be the same. They must be very heavily related!

[XiaoXi]

Oh, and Xiaoxi, I would think that NOBODY is actually intentionally taught like that, BTW. They may pick it up accidently, or they may even have a different accent to listen to, which is less harsh than standard putonghua from a BJ area. This results in an accent, not incorrect zhongwen, which should always be guarded against.

Maybe the teaching materials in Taiwan classes contain correct pronunciation but the problem is is that the teachers themselves pronounce it wrongly so the students are always gonna end up saying it that way. Like I said, I've seen videos of this being done so I know its true. At the end of the day, if it WAS taught like that in schools then the people on the street wouldn't talk like that either.

That said, some people CANT pronounce shi4 and pronounce it as si4. Again, this will not result in misunderstanding the person, just an accent.

I disagree. There's a world of difference between accent and pronouncing words quite wrongly. Accent is normally just an overall sound difference or slight changes to many words or slightly more major changes to few words. This is a very big change to many, many words.

And this is the most important point, its not just changing words, its changing words into OTHER words! So its like I'm saying 'cat' but it comes out as 'dog'. Much more of a problem than for example saying 'cat' and the 't' on the end is very soft.

[Guest realmayo]

So does that make Taiwanese much cleverer than Beijingrs, because they can deal with these misunderstanding which would completely stump northern Chinese? Or is life in Taiwan super-confusing, with people misunderstanding each other several times in every conversation, making life there almost impossible to live compared with other parts of the world? I mean, in Taiwan they go to buy a cat and come home with a dog by mistake?