Tsinghua University

[GreyMatter]

Hello everyone. I'm going to be moving to Beijing in February to study Mandarin fulltime for a year or two. I've done a lot of research and read a ton of this forum and have seen little-to-no information about Chinese studies at Tsinghua. From their website and my limited correspondence with them, it sounds like a great place to study but not having talked to anyone who has studied there, I'm a bit nervous about it. Does anyone have any information or experience with Tsinghua? I'm open to study anywhere but would really perfer a more "Chinese" experience than a foreigner-saturated environment like at BLCU.

Thanks!

[shibo77]

Hello Grey Matter! Tsinghua is best at science and technology. They have a nuclear fusion reactor in there. I am not sure if they offer good Chinese courses. But if you need, I have a relative, who is a professor there. May get you a discount.

-Shibo

[okay_lah!]

Hi!

I don't have any experience with Tsinghua yet, but I've signed up for a full year starting this September. My only resources of information were pretty much the same as you Greymatter. Anyway, there are two reasons why I wanted to study there:

1. It's one of the most prestigious and famous universities in China

2. When I was studying in Singapore I went to this show on campus. There was this student art troupe from Tsinghua University performing Chinese folk songs, dancing etc. And they were terrific! Since then I figured that this must be a really nice university.

Well, my reasons might be simple, but I'm just gonna go there with an open-mind a have a good time. If no one has any information to share about the Chinese programs at Tsinghua, I can try to keep you posted concerning how things are after the semester has started.

-o-

[nazia]

I studied at Beida but had lots of friends at Tsinghua and they all seemd to like it there very much. The courses are all very similar (Beida, Tsinghua, BLCU) but I agree with you in that a large university like Beida or Tsinghua certainly feels more like Chinese student life (as far as we know) than the environment at BLCU. Tsinghua is also a pretty campus. Good luck!

[woliveri]

I would very much love to attend a school in China for Chinese language. I have about 3 years of "off and on" study in Chinese Mandarin and would like to build on that foundation.

May I ask, what are the costs for attending Tsinghua (cing hua?)?

Thank you,

Bill

[7jason7]

Can someone let me know how if there is a website to learn more about Tsinghua programs for English speakers? I've looked but couldn't find anything.

Thank you.

[roddy]

this any use?

Roddy

[7jason7]

Thanks, Roddy !

Question: What is the advantage/disadvantage of going to China to sudy through an intermediary school (Berkeley) or company (Educasian) rather than just applying directly? Trying to apply directly appears cheaper, sometimes by a lot.

Check this out: Tsinghua by yourself for a semester -- US$2,500: http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/wb/lxs/clcffe.htm

VERSUS

Tsinghua with "IUP" (Berkeley) -- US$13,000:

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/iup/fees.html

-- You get better treatment if you apply through the middleman?

-- Is the teaching quality, textbooks, and whole experience different if you apply directly rather than through a middleman?

-- Are students that used a middleman mixed together with the other students that applied directly?

-- Why is the information on websites to apply so bad?

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Jas

[roddy]

I haven't done either. I'd guess though, that as 'agency' students will be coming from a large customer of the university, they may get better service. I think there's reference on here somewhere to a uni in Tianjin messing around the timetables for their 'direct' students in order to keep the students from a western university happy.

Also, if the middleman is a university with experience of teaching Chinese, they could have had input on the course, so you might find it better. However, when you look at that difference in fees, it's hard to see how it could be worth it.

Roddy

[Chiquita]

Jason,

The IUP program and the Tsinghua Chinese Language Program are two completely different programs. They are held in different buildings, have different teaching methods, and have different textbooks.

I am in the IUP language program, and I am pretty sure that it is one of the most intensive language programs in China. I also know of someone who is studying at the Tsinghua program, and he doesn't like it because the teaching is not very good at all. Of course, the tuition is also higher at IUP, but if you can get a scholarship to go, it is definitely worth it. Another comparable program is the ICLP program in Taiwan.

[Jizzosh]

Looks like the major difference comes in the style of teaching, with the IUP giving 1 hour individual tutoring and 3 hours with a small class of 2-4 students, whereas normal intensive programs seem to offer one 4 hour course with 10-20 students. Perhaps the teachers are better proven as well.

Anyway, from what I hear about the price of private tutoring, you could get daily tutoring plus intensive language courses and living accomodations for far less that 13,000 USD. AND, that 13,000 USD does not cover housing, textbooks, food, etc. They suggest another 600 USD for that. I think you can do better mate.

Josh.

Laìshūyà

赖书亚

[ChouDoufu]

IUP is considered to be the best intensive chinese course. Period. It's very intensive though. Everyone I know who's taken it has improved quite a lot during the course. The problem is you can't seem to find them during the course because they are too busy studying. They have literally 4-6 hours of work to do every night and barely have time for a life, but there's also the pressure of knowing the class only has 2-4 people, so if you don't know the material the teacher will grill you. The students tend to be self-selected--they're willing to work hard. IUP was created in conjunction with either USC or stanford or something like that. They had previously created the ICLP program in taiwan.

private tutor vs. IUP: I'd say it would be pretty hard to find a private teacher with the experience and trainng of the IUP teachers. Also, you'd be by yourself, so you wouldn't be able to get that competative flavor that you'd get from having a classmate next to you.

The other language programs are very similar to those at Beida and BLCU. In fact if you didn't choose BLCU because of the foreign environment, then you might be a little bit dissapointed. All your classes will be with foreigners, the dorms will be full of foreigners, and unless you proactively get out and meet Chinese people, then you're circle of people will consist of foreigners. I don't think it matters where you go, it's more about the determination to really go out there and meet Chinese people.

[Jive Turkey]

IUP is considered to be the best intensive chinese course. Period. It's very intensive though. Everyone I know who's taken it has improved quite a lot during the course. The problem is you can't seem to find them during the course because they are too busy studying. They have literally 4-6 hours of work to do every night and barely have time for a life, but there's also the pressure of knowing the class only has 2-4 people, so if you don't know the material the teacher will grill you. The students tend to be self-selected--they're willing to work hard. IUP was created in conjunction with either USC or stanford or something like that. They had previously created the ICLP program in taiwan.

I had heard good things in the past about the IUP (Inter-university Program). The classes are quite small and the facilities are pretty good. If I hadn't gotten married, I may have gone there for a year. One regret I had about marrying and settling in HK was that I would probably never be able to do a year of study at a place like the IUP at Qinghua. Those regrets continued until this summer when I met a former IUP student while I was studying part-time at CUHK.

This former student had been enrolled on the IUP program for the 2003-2004 academic year. She pulled out before the end of the first term because she was extremely dissatisfied with the teaching. According to her, the IUP has been having a difficult time keeping qualified and experienced teachers. Many if not all of the IUP teachers who have an MA in TCSOL or applied linguistics get hired by US universities after just a couple of years of teaching at IUP. The program has supposedly resorted to hiring BA English graduates with no teacher training. My classmate said that quite a lot of the students were not satisfied. I'm a little surprised that there have been no comments posted here. This is all third person info, so take it with a shaker of salt.

One thing I can comment on with certainty about IUP is their materials. My classmate brought in a large stack of stuff for me to look at, all of it advanced or high intermediate. It was mediocre. I'd say it was better than most of the materials I've seen used in Taiwan or HK. A skilled teacher would be able to adapt and supplement them in order to teach a good lesson, but the methodology was still a bit traditional. They would in no way compare favourably with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th year BLU materials.

Concerning IUP's materials, I think I know what the problem is. IUP, like a lot of programs that have a contracted relationship with foreign universities or are in some way jointly operated, thinks it needs to produce its own materials. The Chinese Language Center at CUHK, the MTC at NTNU and the ICLP at Taida (remnant of the old IUP) all produce their own materials. These schools have long felt that they are better able to serve their students needs by publishing (privately or for the market) their own stuff rather than buying off the shelf. In the past, I guess that was the best choice. Now, however, these centers don't have the resources to compete with the likes of BLU and its press.

I can say for sure that the CUHK CLC, MTC and ICLP are increasingly not on the cutting edge of Chinese language teaching methodology and materials development. After looking at the IUP's materials, I am tempted to say the same about them, too. These centers just teach language; they don't have any sort of research departments or truly professional material developers. Most of their teachers just have a degree in Chinese or English; you will see the odd MA in TESOL, applied linguistics or linguistics, but virtually nobody with an MA in TCSOL. BLU, on the other hand, seems to have pretty high standards for who they hire. I think all of their teachers have at least a BA in language teaching, and there's no way you can hang around without getting an MA. At least that's what I've heard from the Chinese I've known who've done teaching degrees there.

Centers like the IUP, CUHK CLC, NTNU MTC and the NTU ICLP are able to sell themselves because of small class sizes. Small class sizes are important, but if the materials are crap and/or the teacher doesn't know how to exploit them, it doesn't matter if the class has four students or thirty students. I've not been to BLU or IUP, but if I were able to study for a year, the ideal set up would be BLU materials and a BLU teacher with an MA, but in an environment like IUP. I don't know what the high level classes are like at BLU, but at least for the lower and intermediate classes, there are just too many people in each class and your classmates are not likely to be very serious students.

I'm very curious to hear from anybody who has studied at IUP or BLU. IUP says that it only accepts students who have done at least two years of Chinese in the US. I've read that all IUP students take the HSK at the end of the year. I'd be very curious to know how they compare with a degree student who's finished year two or three at BLU. After looking at and using the third year materials, I'd say that a third year BLU student would have no trouble at all with pulling an HSK 8. My classmate at CUHK was pretty damn good, but she said that little of her ability could be attributed to IUP. She's Canadian-Chinese and a serious self-studier. I've only met one other person who did a year at IUP; I was not impressed with him at all. Any comments about IUP?

[ChouDoufu]

By BLU do you mean Beijing Language (and culture) University? I just started taking my third year there. I do like the textbooks and the teachers are very good. As for my other western classmates, a lot of them still have fundamental problems with tones--i think in the more personal situations that IUP offers, those problems would be worked out to a certain degree. BLCU has a bunch of great teachers. But they also have a lot of older teachers who need to retire.

[mr. fanglang]

Regarding the earlier comments made on the subject, I'm currently enrolled at ICLP in Taipei (where IUP used to be based). One of my classmates studied at IUP previously and said the teachers at IUP are indeed younger with less experience. At ICLP, however, 2 of my 4 teachers have over 10 years of experience each (with one having 20+ years). Also, only about half of the teaching materials are in house productions. I find both the teaching and the materials to be good to excellent, and very challenging.

As for places like BLCU, etc, I also have friends who went to those types of places and the comment was that the big classes made studying quite frustrating. For instance, many overseas Chinese who grew up speaking chinese have greater need to improve their reading/writing. For the numerous Japanese/Koreans studying there, their problem is just the opposite as they can pick up Chinese characters easily. Mixing these two types of students together is not an efficient use of time.

[Chiquita]

I feel like I need to Post about IUP since so much has been said about it. I"ve only been in the program for one month, but have the following observations to make.

Pros

I think the small class sizes is definitely a major pro of the program. You get lots of time to talk in class, ask questions, and discuss topics. Having said that, the small class size also puts lots of pressure on you to prepare for class. If you don't, you look like an ass, and that's just the way it is. Some people thrive under this type of pressure, some people hate it. I'm still trying to decide.

Most of the people you meet at IUP are serious language learners and are highly motivated to study the language. This is a great plus if you are the type of person who gets motivated because other people are motivated. I have heard other students talk about their other experiences in other language shcools, and most have said that the learning environment in IUP is much better. However, it is also true that how much you learn depends on how seriously you study... no program, no matter how good is going to help you if you don't want to do the hours required to become proficient.

The teachers that I have encountered are generally quite good. They do tend to be a bit young and some of them are not the most experienced, but most are willing to take your suggestions for improvement. Younger teachers are also a plus in another way - you often become friends with your teachers and develop a relationship with them. Such relationships might be harder if there is an age gap of 10-20 years between you and the teacher. Again, this may be more valuable to some people than others, so I just throw it out as something to consider.

The textbooks that I have used so far are generally published by IUP. The one textbook I have that is not published by them, but is instead published by the Beijing University Press is frankly ridiculously stupid. So in that respect, I disagree with the poster who said that the IUP materials are inferior or who implied that they don't publish their own stuff.

Cons

One of the major cons of this program is the fact that it doesn't really have a system to help you make friends with local Chinese people. Many other programs do provide that opportunity, and I personally think that it would be valuable to get to know more locals in Beijing. The program is quite narrow in focus in that it sees itself as a language training center only -- it tends to forget that most people are studying in China because they also want to get to know the people and the country. IUP tends to be less helpful in that regard.

The pressure in this program is sometimes very hard to take. I have heard stories of people dropping out or breaking down because of the volume of work in the program. This is a major issue among students.

Lack of facilities. Some people who have studied at ICLP say that the facilities there - in terms of audio equipment, computer equipment, etc. are much better than at IUP. It seems like a small point, but it really makes a difference when you have about 6 hours of homework everynight

Teachers are overworked. Most of the teachers work very hard to prepare for class. This is a good thing. But on the other hand, it also means that it is sometimes hard for students to meet up with teachers after class to chat or talk about problems because they are just too busy for you.

Teaching style is still relatively old school, although better than my experiences at BLCU. There is a lot of memorization involved and a lot of repeating from the book. Some teachers are better than others, but this seems to be quite common in most of my classes.

[7jason7]

All,

Thanks for taking the time to post and share your invaluable information. It's really valuable to people like me who are seriously considering ICLP, IUP, etc.

I hope others will benefit from all of this objective insight.

-- Jason

[Jive Turkey]

I feel like I need to Post about IUP since so much has been said about it. I"ve only been in the program for one month, but have the following observations to make.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a few questions about the program.

Before you went to Beijing, did they have you do the Center for Applied Linguistics' Chinese Proficiency Exam? If so, do you think it is comparable to the HSK elementary/intermediate exam?

You've provided some detailed comments. What level do you fall into right now in their curriculum? I imagine all students attain different levels of progress. How far up the curriculum do you plan to go in your year there?

I'd like to get a better idea of what students achieve after a year at IUP. I've read that all IUP students take the HSK toward the end of the academic year. Do most people take the elementary/intermediate exam, or do they also have a fair number of people taking the advanced exam? They claim to have a good program even for quite advanced students; I'm just trying to get an idea of how advanced. In your opinion, would they have much to offer to someone who's already quite advanced (let's say something like a "superior" on the ACTFL proficiency exam or a strong 3 on the US government's ILR scale) and already using Chinese for professional/academic purposes? Just how advanced in Modern Chinese do you think their most advanced students are?

I'm married and fairly settled in Hong Kong. I would, however, be willing to take a summer or semester off from work if I thought a program was worth my while. Most of what I've seen and heard about IUP sounds pretty good for high elementary to upper intermediate/low advanced students, but they don't have much on their website indicating that they have a strong program for already advanced learners. The reason I say that is because the scope of their materials (just judging from what's on their website and those shown to me by a friend) seem a bit narrow. On their website, they seem to emphasise things that would be of concern to a high elementary or intermediate learner (mainly oral/aural skills, tonal accuracy). I'm way past having troubles with any of that; if I were to go back and study full time again, it would mainly be for improving my academic writing. On their website they mention building advanced reading and discussion skills in a student's academic or professional field. While I could still improve these skills in my field (applied linguistics/language teaching), the room for improvement is not great enough to justify leaving my wife in HK for a few months while I go off to Beijing. There's no bottle neck there for me to break through. It's mainly academic writing that I'm looking for. Have they got the goods?

Finally, do you think the quality of the summer program is the same as the Fall/Spring program?

[lylestyle]

I just met a friend who did the IUP program and his chinese is excellent, I would say close to fluent. He's now working for a hospital in Beijing translating documents. I don't think the IUP program is good for just a few months or a summer though, its meant to be a year long immersion thing. The bottom line is its all about your motivation like what the person mentioned above. The only reason that that person was so successful at IUP was that he was extrememly motivated and knew what he had to do to get fluent, or close to it. IUP would help in alot of ways, but really you could do the same thing by just taking classes at a regular Chinese university learning Chinese, and using other means to complement your class clearning, ie homestay, hiring tutors(very easy), and just meeting friends. Your classroom is already out there, in the form of 13 million (Beijing)people who speak Chinese, you just have to utilize it. As for the person doing the IUP program who talked about the cons of them not having a system to meet new friends, I have to say its all up to you. Chinese people in general love to meet foreigners, even if you feel stupid, its really easy to go out to bars, college hangout spots and meet tons of Chinese, its all how motivated you are. Of course if you have 6 hours of homework a night that makes it more difficult, but not impossible.

I am doing the a year at Beida and am so far am fairly happy with it, but there are some cons. Mostly the problem is the fact that Beida is accepting way too many foreign students so there are too many foreigners and not enough qualified teachers. But the teachers are good, and again its all about your motivation.

[molihua]

Hi,

Can I ask for some info about Tsinghua Uni?

I think we just discussed the IUP, not the Tsinghua Uni itself.

Is the teaching at Tsinghua really not good like Chiquita said?

is there any other comments?

thanx

Cheers,

Juli