Differences with colloquial Mandarin

[FinalFan18]

I've read that Chinese is more of a group of languages instead of just one single, common language but that all literate chinese no matter their respective dialects can read, write, and understand 'vernacular chinese' or the 'standard written chinese'...i've also read that spoken mandarin is different than written mandarin...specifically, i was wondering just how great the differences are between the spoken and written forms of the beijing mandarin dialect. When they subtitle chinese TV shows, I'm assuming they are using the 'vernacular chinese', is this the same as standard Mandarin? And how different is the written form of Mandarin from the spoken form? Can I become fluent in mandarin chinese by simply learning words i get from a beijing newspaper or is it not like learning any other language and you must learn certain words through their spoken forms?

[calibre2001]

...specifically, i was wondering just how great the differences are between the spoken and written forms of the beijing mandarin dialect. When they subtitle chinese TV shows, I'm assuming they are using the 'vernacular chinese', is this the same as standard Mandarin?

Yes

And how different is the written form of Mandarin from the spoken form?

Generally written chinese can be the same as spoken mandarin. It is 'correct' to write chinese that way as it is considered the modern standard. However written chinese is so much more than that thanks to its history; it can use elements from older chinese, dialect vocabulary, and be shorter and more concise than spoken mandarin. In this state the written chinese will be quite distant from spoken mandarin; more bookish perhaps. Colloquial mandarin like any colloquial language uses simple and everyday words alot to describe things.

Can I become fluent in mandarin chinese by simply learning words i get from a beijing newspaper or is it not like learning any other language and you must learn certain words through their spoken forms?

It is possible to understand and read chinese without speaking it. But learning to speak first makes the process alot easier though I think that's only the tip of the iceberg.

[Daan]

I don't know about newspapers in the PRC, but here in Taiwan I would say it's definitely not possible to achieve fluency in Mandarin by only reading newspapers. The vocabulary they use is far too formal and will seldom be heard in normal day-to-day speech. Newspapers feature lots of abbreviated forms, specific turns of phrase unique to journalism and 'classical' structures.

Note, though, that in my opinion this is true of newspapers all over the world, not just in China. Journalists tend to write as objectively and as concisely as possible. That's simply not how people speak. The difference is that in China, the gap between the spoken language (口語) and the formal written language (書面語）might be wider than the one in most Western countries. Of course, that's only my opinion.

Anyway, as to Chinese newspapers, as I was saying: learners tend to find them especially difficult to read, myself included. I studied Chinese at a European university for two years, and am currently studying in Taipei. It's only now that I'm beginning to understand newspapers. So I would definitely recommend you start out studying a textbook such as NCPR or Integrated Chinese. There are lots of threads on the forums about those - just use the search button, it's your friend

[renzhe]

Written Vernacular Chinese is basically modern Standard Mandarin.

There are some (slight) differences between written language and spoken language, but like Daan says, these are slight, and mostly due to slightly more bookish words and occasional classical phrases (chengyu) being used. If you actually read a newspaper article outloud to a native speaker, they will understand it.

Like in other languages, it's a matter of style, not language. After all, nobody speaks like a James Joyce novel For the most part, they are the same.

The Chinese series will subtitle exactly what is being said (at least the Mainland ones), so they will write what people are speaking. This is one of the best ways to learn modern spoken vernacular.

The trick is if you are learning to speak a dialect (regionalect/language) other than Mandarin. Like Cantonese, Taiwanese, Shanghainese, etc. These dialects are rarely written. Even Cantonese, which does have a written history, is mostly used in informal situations. Usually, standard vernacular is written, which uses (mostly) Mandarin grammar and Mandarin vocabulary.

So learning Mandarin has this huge advantage that you can actually improve your level through reading.

[Daan]

I doubt even James Joyce himself spoke the way he wrote. At least, I hope so for him ;-)

Anyway, you can definitely improve your proficiency in Mandarin by reading a lot. Look for some graded readers, these are excellent.

[FinalFan18]

Thanks so much!

I'd like to improve my mandarin vocabulary mainly through reading as this is how i have learned other languages, but i wouldn't want to come off as sounding so blatantly unnatural to the native chinese ear. I've noticed when other languages subtitle their movies or tv, they almost never give you word for word what is being said, mainly for time constraints and some things might take a little longer for some to actually read. Is it usually the case with mandarin subtitles that they are generally word-for-word?

[renzhe]

I'd like to improve my mandarin vocabulary mainly through reading as this is how i have learned other languages, but i wouldn't want to come off as sounding so blatantly unnatural to the native chinese ear.

Don't worry, reading is one of the best ways to improve your vocabulary. After you get past the basic conversational stage, it is probably the best way.

The worst thing that can happen is that you sound too bookish (or read too many wuxia novels and end up speaking like a Daoist priest lol), but this is easily fixed with more conversation with real people.

In general, conversation and listening are important, though, as you need to hear the words in order to use them effectively. So I'd recommend always having listening and conversation somewhere in there.

Is it usually the case with mandarin subtitles that they are generally word-for-word?

They are in the PRC and Taiwan.

HK shows will usually be in Cantonese with Chinese subtitles, so this won't help with listening. Sometimes these shows are dubbed into Mandarin, but the dubbing doesn't always match the subtitles.

Oh, and you sound like you will be interested in this.

[Daan]

Forgive me for perhaps pointing out the obvious here, but the subtitles will only be word-for-word if what is being subtitled is standard Mandarin. I've seen lots of movies here in Taiwan where the subtitles were just slightly different from what was actually being spoken, in terms of word choice and especially slang words that are not used in standard Mandarin.

And I completely agree with renzhe, reading is probably the best way to increase your vocabulary. Read about something you're interested in - that'll help you stay motivated. But don't forget, there's also a lot of words about subjects you might not be interested in, but if you want your Chinese to be balanced you'll have to at least be vaguely familiar with them, too

[Dawei1]

In an absolutely fasinating discussion on linguistics from John McWhorter, he points out that written & spoken languages differ in every language - that we never sound like we think we sound. When we talk, we constantly make mistakes, repeat words, and use sounds that aren't on the page.

As an American example: Americans think that when they say "battle" or "bottle", they pronounce the "t's", but they actually use "d's" - "baddle" and "boddle." Try to say "warmth" without the "p" (we say warmpth). McWhorter also compares the formality of written language and shows how we write things we'd never say. It's not a matter of education.

In written form (even casual e-mail), we might write "Last night, I went to my mothers house and I was so surprised when she opened the door. Inside....

In spoken form "Last night - I couldn't believe it - at my mothers house, she opened the door and inside..." Unless people are actually recorded, they don't realize they talk like this. We like to think we talk in the King's/Queen's/Newscasters English.

[HashiriKata]

We like to think we talk in the King's/Queen's/Newscasters English

It's good that we only think we talk in the King's/Queen's/Newscasters English. If we actually talked in the King's/Queen's/Newscasters English, we would sound very strange. So, just let foreigners do it...

[wushijiao]

Every language has different levels of formality used in different social contexts (diplomatic or formal business event vs. chat with friends), and written forms can also have different levels of formality (formal business letters vs. novels, which may faithfully capture the spoken form in print). There's also CCP discourse and rhetoric, which tends to be very euphemistic, and may take time to get used to the implied meanings. Even through every language has these discrepancies of usage, I'd also agree with Daan that the level of difference between spoken and written is greater in Chinese.

So, to become fluent, you really need to get good at all the different aspects of the language. However, I think that you probably shouldn't spend too much time worrying about these things. As you study more and more, these issues will all become clearer, and you'll naturally see where your weaknesses are, and where you need improvement.

[chrix]

It's good that we only think we talk in the King's/Queen's/Newscasters English. If we actually talked in the King's/Queen's/Newscasters English, we would sound very strange. So, just let foreigners do it...

Actually an Australian-German phonetician once studied the Queen's Christmas speeches and found that the Queen no longer speaks the Queen's English, her vowels have become assimilated