ICLP/IUP beneficial for an ABC??

[AziL213]

Hi everyone,

I am in my last year of undergrad at a university in the U.S. I eventually want to have a career in interpretation (between English and Mandarin Chinese), and my plan is to go to grad school in Monterey for it. However, for the time being I don't think my language skills are good enough, and I would like to advance them before I waste my time and money applying to/attending a very expensive graduate school. So, I am looking at different programs in China and Taiwan, and I am very interested in ICLP and IUP.

Here's the thing: My Chinese skills are already (relatively) advanced. My family is Taiwanese, and I grew up mostly in the U.S. (spent a few years in middle school living in Taiwan, but attended high school and college here). So I'm a heritage speaker, but I have also taken upper level college courses - 2 years of 5th year, or grad level, Chinese (not repeats, but different topics of study). However, the skill level required of an interpreter is really VERY high, hence my desire to spend more time abroad in an intensive study program.

My concern is this: will ICLP/IUP be beneficial enough for a heritage speaker to outweigh the costs?? I know this is a difficult question to answer in any sort of concrete way, but any advice (from those who have actual information about the programs, not just general "here's what ABCs should do to improve their language skills" advice) would be appreciated.

Also, I know there has already been a lot of discussion about the differences between ICLP and IUP, but I have read them all and even the newest posts are almost two years old. Can anyone provide more recent information on the strengths/weaknesses of each program? I kind of want to go to the Mainland - since my family is from Taiwan I can go there whenever I want, but at the same time I don't really want to go to the Mainland (the censorship, pollution, etc.). Some updated info on either program would be really appreciated, since any academic advantages would help me overcome my personal preferences.

Thanks so much,

Amy

[gato]

ICLP/IUP certainly would be helpful, but you might be able to achieve the same thing at a lower cost by with a combination of advanced classes at a university (advanced classes are typically smaller), one-on-one with a private tutor and language exchange. What level are you currently at? Are you reading newspapers and books yet? Given your background, which is somewhat similar to mine, I would guess that your biggest weakness is probably writing (which is mine, as well), and that would benefit the most from a one-on-one tutorial.

See these threads for some related discussions:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/2103-homosexuality-in-chinese-literature0&highlight=bnu+advanced

BNU class insight?

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/19823-studying-chinese-literature-at-bnu&highlight=bnu

Studying Chinese literature at BNU

[Jive Turkey]

One thing to consider is that for a lot of the top level Chinese interpreting jobs in any country, there seems to be an unspoken preference for people with "the right accent," especially for people who are Chinese A. The few whitey interpreters who are English A, Chinese B and learned their Chinese in Taiwan are excused because they are foreigners, and they are Chinese B. Chinese, and sometimes even Chinese looking interpreters are expected to have the Putonghua Shuiping Ceshi-esque accent, with neutral tones and -er hua in all the "right" places, not to mention perfectly standard pronunciation of zh-, ch- and sh- sounds.

If your Mandarin sounds at all like Taiwanese Mandarin, this might give you trouble in the future. If you were to go to ICLP in Taipei, I have no doubt that there would be black studded leather wearing, whip wielding teachers who will beat out any Taiwanese Mandarin features that you might have in your pronunciation. However, they almost certainly will not be able to sort you out on -erhua and neutral tones because these simply have not been emphasized in Taiwan in the way that they have been in language standardization on the mainland.

I don't know what your spoken Chinese is like, but if I had the same background and goals as yours, I'd lean towards the mainland.

[AziL213]

@ gato:

You're right, my biggest weakness is currently writing. I am working on it in my directed study course right now, as the assignments are all written essays. However, I still find myself structuring my writing around my English thought process.

On the other hand, since my ultimate career goals will lean heavily on speaking and listening skills, I am not so concerned about reading and writing. Of course it is important, but secondary for my purposes. To answer your question, I can manage novels just fine, newspaper as well (minus the more technical vocabulary) - more "academic" literature is still some work though. My preference for ICLP/IUP as opposed to something more casual or self-motivating is based on my desire to excel my language skills quickly. I am not so much interested in getting my Master's, writing a dissertation, or any sort of theoretical study. I just want the language skills, and I want them now!

What exactly do you mean by advanced classes at a university? Do you mean a Chinese university? I was under the impression that even higher level classes in Chinese universities are huge, although I'm sure I could be wrong.

@ Jive Turkey:

You've touched on one of my main concerns here! Although I didn't mention it in my original post, one of my biggest reasons for wanting to go to the Mainland to study is to standardize my accent a little. It's not so bad that it's 台灣狗語 lol, but I definitely have a hard time with the correct usage of the retroflex sounds - and I don't use -er at all, ever.

Anyone else have any firsthand experience as to the importance of a standard accent in interpretation (I eventually want to work in the U.S., not China)? My thoughts are that it's probably pretty important for the type of career I want (ultimately, something with the government or other related organizations), but it would be great to hear from someone with more definitive experience.

Jive, I remember you had commented on some of the previous posts about the differences between ICLP/IUP. One of your posts in particular was very emphatic about how Taiwan has fallen behind the Mainland in its CSL teaching methodology. Do you have any updated thoughts on that? Do you still think that ICLP uses outdated methods? And if you don't mind my asking, what information has influenced your opinion?

Thanks to both of you for your responses!

[Jive Turkey]

Jive, I remember you had commented on some of the previous posts about the differences between ICLP/IUP. One of your posts in particular was very emphatic about how Taiwan has fallen behind the Mainland in its CSL teaching methodology. Do you have any updated thoughts on that? Do you still think that ICLP uses outdated methods? And if you don't mind my asking, what information has influenced your opinion?

I have never attended ICLP or IUP, so take what I say about these two institutions with a grain of salt.

I would say that in some ways, the mainland has jumped way ahead of Taiwan in TCSL. The two most obvious areas where this has happened is in materials design and assessment. If you walk into the large bookstores on the mainland, you will be struck with how much more TCSL material there is, the variety of it, and the generally superior quality of it compared to what is on the shelves in Taiwan. Taiwan TCSL seems to still be stuck in an audiolingual method time warp. Make no mistake that the same kinds of materials and methods are present on the mainland; however, one sees in mainland materials published in the last ten years an increased sophistication and borrowing of many pedagogical concepts that were originally developed around ELT.

Taiwan's answer to the HSK is completely irrelevant. It came too late, and it just doesn't have the scale necessary for it to develop into a valid, reliable assessment.

Having said the above, ICLP has a lot going for it, and for my money, I think I'd choose it over IUP. The impression I get from people who have attended ICLP is that although many of the teachers are old school, they are very experienced. They also seem to have more expertise in teaching classical Chinese and academic writing. In contrast, I get the impression that IUP is mainly trading on name. IUP was actually hosted by NTU until the late 1990s. The American partners in IUP then decided to move it to Qinghua in Beijing. NTU then took over the old IUP center on their campus, teachers and all, and continued under the new ICLP name.

As I understand it, IUP still uses many of the materials that were developed in Taiwan, with some modifications. Very little material development has happened since the move. The main reason for this seems to be that there is a turnover problem in the teaching staff; they just don't have the accumulated experience that ICLP has. One lady I knew who had done a bit of studying at both (like summer program, not the whole year) felt that the IUP teachers leaned toward taking BLCU or Beida materials off the shelf rather than actually developing their own stuff. I think a lot of the BLCU and Beida materials are good, but a lot of these were developed with class sizes of about 20 in mind, not the small group classes at IUP or ICLP.

There is one other difference between the two that might be of interest to you. From what I hear, IUP teachers focus way more on "accuracy" in speaking, to the extent where at least one person I knew who went there felt it was a distraction from the reading and writing skills he wanted to develop. By "accuracy," I mean that they are relatively obsessed with the drilling of pronunciation features that don't matter that damn much for most learners: things like -erhua and neutral tones, even when they are not distinguishing features in a minimal pair. In contrast, if you walk into a Taiwan teacher's room with 4 accurate tones and accurate pronunciation of all vowels and consonants, then they will just say "great, now let's focus on vocab, syntax and fluency." I'd have to try hard not to laugh at an IUP teacher if he/she tried to use much class time on neutral tones and -erhua, but this might actually be what you need.

Both of these programs are expensive, and you would likely find both of them a bit inflexible and old school. My feeling is that the advanced learner attending an expensive small classs + one-to-one program needs to go with a plan and then lay down the law with the teacher(s) regarding what he/she wants. Otherwise, these teachers will be as much an obstacle to your learning as an aid.

Edited October 24, 2009 at 08:57 AM by Jive Turkey

[Daan]

In contrast, if you walk into a Taiwan teacher's room with 4 accurate tones and accurate pronunciation of all vowels and consonants, then they will just say "great, now let's focus on vocab, syntax and fluency."

I've spent two months at the Mandarin Training Centre now, and I can tell you: most teachers will do that even when you *don't* have those tones, vowels and consonants down. It gets frustrating. Of course, this will depend on your level and on the teacher, and you do get corrected for blatant mistakes, but after a while they'll just give up. I'm not sure this is unique to Taiwanese teachers, though.