Beijing, Harbin Help!!!

[sara7731]

Hallo Everybody,

my husband and I are thinking about the opportunity of moving to Harbin or Beijing, as my husband has an opportunity of working there in transfer

for his company.

We are a couple of 30 years old people with a Baby and we are particularly worried for HIM as we are reading some terrible information about

POLLUTION in these two cities.

For this reason we would like to ask you some suggestions that will be for us very useful about the following subjects:

1- POLLUTION: I would like to get your opinions and your truth about the subject pollution (AIR, WATER, FOOD), to know how did you find

some solutions to it.

Is it possible to breath cleaner air living outside of the down town of these two big cities (Beijing and Harbin) and stay in the city only for work?

Is water in bottle (to use for cooking and for drinking) coming from Europe or other western countries available?

Is there anybody using some water purifier in his house?

Is there anybody using some air purifier in his house?

Is there the possibility to eat exclusively food coming from Europe or other western countries ( frozen food, canned food for vegetables and fruits )?

In case we would be interested in receiving periodically food from Europe by post, do you think there would be any restrictions

at the custom?

2- INTEGRATION IN THE SOCIETY: was it easy to integrate with the Chinese society and to offer to your family a good health care service?

What about the school for your children?

3- PRESENCE OF WESTERN CULTURE: is there a good number of western citizens?

4- COST OF LIVING: which minimum cost of living should a western citizen (that is living in Beijing or Harbin) consider?

Any suggestion or experience from you will be very very useful and we thank you very much even if you can answer only in part and only to some of the

above questions!!!

[dali3927]

hey, based on your questions, if i were you, i would choose beijing. in fact, air condition is getting much more better than when i was in beijing 7 years ago, i guess it's not that terrible as you heard.

1. in beijing, there is cleaner air outside of town for sure;

As for bottled water, you can get very good quality of water for supermarket, like Walmart, Carrefour; And you buy water and air purifier in beijing, i know my friends are using them; I'm not sure restriction on food , however, you can get those food/fruits in supermarket.

2. there is a international hospital in beijing called united family hospital orrigally from US, I think. and there are many international kindergartens and schools for kids in beijing as well.

3. definitely, there are much more western citizens in beijing, no need to ask.

4. lastly, it would be more expensive to live in beijing, however, it will make your money worthy.

Overall, based on you asked, Beijing would be the first option, I think.

[jacky.han]

Hi

1# As we all know that Beijing environment changed for the better in recent years during the Olympic.The POLLUTION issue seems not very serious in Beijing,and the goverment are very concerned about the conditions.

2# AIR in North is a little dry,some family use the Air-Humidifier.

3# We use the normal water to cooking and washing, and drink the boiling water or use the water purifier.

4# Chinese are friendly,so it is easy to integrate with the Chinese society if you can speak chinese. But the health care service maybe a little lag and expensive.

5# The custom maybe not necessary,instead you can buy the Imports food and the water from the supermarket.

6# Beijing live a good number of western citizens. Harbin more are Russian.

7# Cost of living in Beijing maybe 2-3 times of Harbin.

I grow up in Harbin countryside and work in Beijing now,and donot know the condition in your country,so it is only my little feeling.

welcome to china.

[kdavid]

We are a couple of 30 years old people with a Baby and we are particularly worried for HIM as we are reading some terrible information about

POLLUTION in these two cities.

Believe it or not, the Chinese actually have babies as well. Last time I checked, the population of both of these cities was well over 9 million each. As such, I assume the babies are doing just fine.

Is it possible to breath cleaner air living outside of the down town of these two big cities (Beijing and Harbin) and stay in the city only for work?

There's fresh air everywhere. Especially outside.

Is water in bottle (to use for cooking and for drinking) coming from Europe or other western countries available?

The Chinese bottle their own water. Again, there are millions of people drinking this water, including children.

Is there anybody using some water purifier in his house?

I don't any Chinese with water filters, though I'm sure they exist.

Is there anybody using some air purifier in his house?

I would highly doubt it.

Is there the possibility to eat exclusively food coming from Europe or other western countries ( frozen food, canned food for vegetables and fruits )?

There are western restaurants all over Beijing, and a few here in Harbin. However, I suggest that if you're interested in eating western food all the time, stay in Europe.

In case we would be interested in receiving periodically food from Europe by post, do you think there would be any restrictions at the custom?

No.

2- INTEGRATION IN THE SOCIETY: was it easy to integrate with the Chinese society and to offer to your family a good health care service?

It's not easy to really integrate, but can be done in time. You'll need to make an honest effort at learning the language and customs, both of which are very different from that of the West.

What about the school for your children?

You don't want your children to go to school here.

3- PRESENCE OF WESTERN CULTURE: is there a good number of western citizens?

In Beijing, there will certainly be some. In Harbin, much fewer.

4- COST OF LIVING: which minimum cost of living should a western citizen (that is living in Beijing or Harbin) consider?

In Beijing, the cost of living will be very high. In Harbin, it's quite inexpensive. However, it seems that you plan on having a western lifestyle here, which will be expensive anywhere.

[knadolny]

You don't want your children to go to school here.

I'm not so sure about this one. I'm willing to bet there are some excellent schools in Beijing for expatriates. You just have to be willing (or you company has to be) to pay for them. I met some kids who went to school there and I was a bit jealous of what a great international environment that they enjoyed. Don't count on me for this as they might have been highly privileged but I would look further into this question.

As for Harbin or Beijing. Remember that Harbin is bloody cold in the winter. I mean seriously cold. I'm originally from Houston, lived in Ithaca and then Beijing (two cold climates) and then went to Harbin for the weekend. They have a spectacular ice festival that I recommend to anyone. BUT...I froze. I wouldn't be able to take one winter there. But that's coming from a Texan. I would have to pick Beijing hands down and the international environment there is very accommodating. Pollution is the worst part of China, but so many other parts make up for it.

Kevin

[jbradfor]

I assume this is a temporary assignment?

I recommend Beijing. Much more western and developed. From the tone of your questions, you are clearly not the type of person that wants to rough it or dive deeply into a different culture.

Read this book now: http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Guide-Beijing-Immersion-Guides/dp/0980138604/ref=pd_sim_b_4

Some specific items:

with a Baby .... What about the school for your children?

Babies don't go to school. Do you mean daycare? If so, you hire a nanny. [Called ayi in Chinese.] Really cheap. Or do you have other kids? If so, your choices are: (i) if your company is paying for it, send them to an International School. These are fantastic. They also cost US$15k-US$25k per year. (ii) if your company is not paying for it, you send them to a private school. These are good and cheaper. In both cases, you are unlikely to send your kids to the public schools.

Believe it or not, the Chinese actually have babies as well. Last time I checked, the population of both of these cities was well over 9 million each. As such, I assume the babies are doing just fine.

Yes, there are babies in China, along with people of all ages. But the OP's concern is valid. The best estimates I've heard are near 1 million extra deaths per year in China due to pollution. This is NOT "just fine".

However, if this is a temporary assignment, you will recover. James Fallows has a recent article about the long-term affects of a short time (<2 years) in China: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/fallows-health-china . However, this is for adults. I too would be concerned about long-term affects to a growing baby. There are pretty much no hard evidence on this. Personally, I don't believe the effects are zero, but I also don't think the effects are huge. [i base this last statement on the fact that people that grew up from birth in China, spending their entire lives there, do not seem significantly impaired.]

[abcdefg]

INTEGRATION IN THE SOCIETY: was it easy to integrate with the Chinese society

I think you will have a real hard time with that based on several of your other questions and the overall tone of your post. Sounds to me like you are really asking "How can I be there without actually being there?"

Is there the possibility to eat exclusively food coming from Europe or other western countries ( frozen food, canned food for vegetables and fruits )?

PRESENCE OF WESTERN CULTURE: is there a good number of western citizens?

Maybe you can survive in an expat enclave in Beijing. Plan on spending lots of money if you go that route, or better yet, stay home.

[sara7731]

Hello All !

thank you very very much for your help, and for all the replies that I have received. Sorry for some of the questions, that, as pointed out by someone of you, could seem a bit stupid....The point is that I have ever been in China. I have lived in US, in France, Germany, Italy, Spain,....all kind of western culture and I wanted really to get the feeling from someone of you in order to have a better idea of the feeling of the culture in China, Beijing in particular.

But most of all, my husband and I are particularly worried for the health of our baby (As "jbradfor" has correclty pointed out, thanks for your remark ), as we hear and read quite a lot of bad news about the pollution in China (and in particular we are interested in Beijing).

Hoping that this is not going to cause you waste of time, I would like to ask you all, if possible, also other information:

1) What do you think about the idea of living outside Beijing, in some kind (if any of them exists) quiet village (maybe 50 km from Beijing....). I imagine that the air should be less polluted there and my husband could go to work by means of the auto, train, buses...How does the connections to Beijing looks like in this sense ? sorry if this question seems stupid but, again, I'm thinking with the european mentality and the way of living here.... I have no idea of how the landscape looks like in Beijing in particular. Which area of the city is more polluted/industrialized in Beijing?

Are there some interesting/useful web links (or books) in which I could find some useful information about this point ( pollution, landscape in surroundings of Beijing..) ?

Do you know of anybody that decided something like what I mentioned above: living outside Beijing and working in the city ?

2) May I ask you which is your idea about the safety in Beijing (criminality...etc....)?

Again, thanks everybody for your replies, for your support and the useful liks and books that you have suggested !!!!!

[jbradfor]

What do you think about the idea of living outside Beijing, in some kind (if any of them exists) quiet village (maybe 50 km from Beijing....). I imagine that the air should be less polluted there and my husband could go to work by means of the auto, train, buses...

There are such places. Here's one I found on google http://www.dragonvillas.com/html/default.aspx that seems to meet your requirements. I know nothing about it. I found it while trying to find the website of Dragon Bay Villa (龙湾别墅), which is a high-end expat community closer to central Beijing, but their website seems to be Chinese only. In English I just found a real estate listing for one example: http://www.joannarealestate.com.cn/beijing/show2.asp?id=991&pid=1257

As for what do I think? I hope others will give a more informed answer, but I wouldn't suggest going too far out. Primarily, you are likely to be extremely isolated. Also, I'm not sure how much better the air quality is. Unlike most western cities, where the air pollution is largely caused by cars and hence the further you get from the center the better the air, in China the pollution seems to be more pervasive. In addition, for the olympics Beijing made a push to get the worst of the polluting factories into the countryside (potentially near where you want to be....). I don't have numbers for it (and not sure if they exist), but I'm not sure the air is that much better further out.

Are there some interesting/useful web links (or books) in which I could find some useful information about this point ( pollution, landscape in surroundings of Beijing..)

The book I mentioned previously. For general information on China and being an ex-pat in China, I'm big fan of James Fallows.

May I ask you which is your idea about the safety in Beijing (criminality...etc....)?

Overall, serious crime rate is very very low in Beijing. That should not be a concern.

[knadolny]

What do you think about the idea of living outside Beijing, in some kind (if any of them exists) quiet village (maybe 50 km from Beijing....). I imagine that the air should be less polluted there and my husband could go to work by means of the auto, train, buses...

I agree that this is no sure bet that the pollution will be less and I think the commute would have to be awful. I was a student living in Beijing so walked to class. I would ride the subways and buses and it wasn't the most delightful experience. I'm in Tokyo now and the transportation is great even though it can get quite crowded.

Of course I was living there in 2004-2005 so someone please correct me if the Olympic construction alleviated all the congestion.

Cheers,

Kevin

[tortue]

I just arrived in Beijing a week ago, and I haven't seen much yet, so this is just my impression at the first glance.

About the pollution, I am not really sure. I must say that I really don't feel it at all. I came over from Paris, and I breathe better over here. I think this is, as someone pointed out, due to the fact that there is still less traffic in Beijing, and the streets are much larger, so the car traffic pollution has less impact.

On the other hand it is true that though almost all the time sunny, it is also constantly a little dizzy here. But I doubt that this (or the major part of) comes from pollution, because over the day, the sun seems to wipe away a good part of it. Or for example, today it was very sunny in the morning, but after a 20 minutes subway ride the city was completely foggy. This cannot be air pollution, and it was the same kind of haze like every day, just more dense. It is a very fine one, which we don't have in Europe where you can literally see the water particles like over boiling water. I did not do any sport yet, but by now I only can repeat that from a subjective point of view, I don't feel anything.

Security: You can read everywhere that Beijing is a very safe city, and that's how it feels. They are even that much concerned about security that every bag you take into the subway goes through X-ray, at any station you enter. If you buy your favourite cooking knife somewhere else than in your neighbourhood I guess you have to go back home by taxi.

Food: Coming to China and eating only canned or frozen food from Europe or US sounds to me like going to France and drinking only wine from Australia or South Africa. You are really going to miss something. I had a couple of different I'd say mid-class or lower restaurants by now, and not only it was delicious each time, but also very fresh, low fat and digestible. Again from a subjective point of view, it just feels healthy food.

I think there are a lot less things to be afraid about than you think in Beijing.

[knadolny]

About the pollution, I am not really sure.

When the weather is nice in Beijing it's beautiful, but the pollution can get bad if it accumulates in the city and no good rain storm or wind storm comes to flush it out. I had visitors in Beijing and their week was full of bad polluted days so I would say you might just be lucky.

Or has the pollution gotten that much better in Beijing? I haven't been back in four years.

Kevin

[tortue]

Or has the pollution gotten that much better in Beijing? I haven't been back in four years.

I guess so.

What I meant by "I am not really sure" was that I cannot say if that everyday's haze, which is sometimes lighter sometimes denser, is due to pollution or just fog. For the time being, I'd say it is fog. I'd appreciate the opinion of others currently living in Beijing on that point.

[adrianlondon]

Today seemed foggy, in that the air was grey. Yesterday I'm assuming was pollution mixed with fog, as it had a brown tint to it. But that could have just been dust; I'm no expert. I'm assuming that the nasty pollution isn't visible, anyway.

[roddy]

This last week has been stinking, but I still feel it stinks less than it used to. Harbin always felt more polluted to me - you'd have thought they had coal-dust spraying planes up there at some points. That was years back though.

What kind of job are we talking about? The kind of lifestyle you are talking about is going to cost, and quite possibly cost more than it would in Europe. If you're getting a full ex-pat package and resettlement allowance, it sounds like you'd be better off in Beijing - it has the kind of support, in terms of foreign supermarkets, foreign healthcare, etc, that it sounds like you want.

Otherwise, I'd seriously think about staying put - you're not going to be able to cook for three with imported water even on an excellent Chinese salary.