How to day "just as..."

[Scoobyqueen]

How would you say "just as" in the context of the company was set up, just as the industrial revolution started". I am thinking of using 同时 but am wondering if there is a fixed phrase that is better.

[anonymoose]

I think 同时 is more like "at the same time as", and is more suitable for describing an extended process (ie. one process happens concurrently with another).

"just as", in the context you provided, seems to be describing a discrete event which happened precisely at the same time as another event. I would say something like 就在...的时候 or 正在...的时候.

Anyway, as usual, I must state the non-native-speaker disclaimer.

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks Anonymoose. That is just what I needed. The presentation for which I need it is a bit informal and it doesnt matter that it is not 100 percent correct (eventhough I dont doubt that this suggestion is).

[Kenny同志]

Formal version: 公司成立之时，正值工业革命开始。

Not-so-formal version: 公司成立的时候，工业革命刚开始。

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks Kenny.

Just out of interest would it be possible to use 启动 instead of 开始?

[gato]

启动 is the transitive version of start, i.e., someone 启动 something.

I think you are looking for the intransitive version of start, i.e., something started, which would be 开始.

[Kenny同志]

启动 can be used either as a transitive verb or an intransitive verb. e.g. 该计划将于今年九月启动。

启动 can't be used here. Imho, it is a matter of collocation. we do not say 革命启动

rahter, we say 启动项目 启动(开动)机器 项目启动 机器启动（开动）

[gato]

启动 can be used either as a transitive verb or an intransitive verb. e.g. 该计划将于今年九月启动

In this example, is 计划 the subject or the implicit object? 是”计划启动“呢？还是“启动计划”？

[Kenny同志]

Here, 启动 is an intransitive verb. 计划 is the subject, not the object.

[chrix]

I think, here I would side with gato. Yip and Rimmington call it "notional passive", some kind of 被-less passive construction avoiding the adversative connotation 被 usually has. Examples include 问题解决了 and 信寄走了.

The vast majority of examples from jukuu is transitive as well.

[Kenny同志]

I concur with you, Chrix.

[animal world]

Just for kicks, i played with this sentence in the Google translator Atitarev reported on yesterday. http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=209240#post209240

This is what it gave:

the company was set up just as the industrial revolution started:

该公司成立，正如工业革命开始

the company was set up around the beginning of the industrial revolution:

该公司成立前后的工业革命开始

the company was founded right at the beginning of the industrial revolution:

该公司成立于权在工业革命开始

the company was set up when the industrial revolution started:

该公司成立时，工业革命开始

the company was set up exactly when the industrial revolution started:

该公司成立时，正是工业革命开始

It seems the translator doesn't do a terrible job as long as you stay away from imprecise terms (such as just/around/right in these examples) that are subject to numerous interpretations pending on the context.

[anonymoose]

Well, I'm going to stick my neck out here, and talk about grammar, which admittedly I'm not an expert in. However, as I understand it, the notion of subject and object is a grammatical notion, and the subject of a sentence need not necessarily be the performer of the action of the verb, but could be the recipient. Intransitive verbs are those that do not take a grammatical object, but it does not mean that the verb cannot have a recipient.

For example, on this PDF such sentences are refered to as 受事主语句, and one example given is 饭吃完了. Grammatically, 饭 is the subject of the sentence even though it is the recipient of the action, and the verb 吃 does not have an object, so in this sentence is serving as an intransitive verb.

So, I think I have to agree with kenny2006woo when he says:

Here, 启动 is an intransitive verb. 计划 is the subject, not the object.

[chrix]

Right, 计划 is the subject, but 启动 is still a transitive verb. That's what a passive construction does, it promotes the object of the active clause to subject.

[David W Jackson]

Just as = 正当的时候

[HashiriKata]

but 启动 is still a transitive verb

Here is food for thought, chris : Is there anything stopping 启动 from being both transitive and intransitve?

[chrix]

no, of course not. You can analyse a phenomenon like the "notional passive" in different ways of course. But it does look like a derived construction to me, because if the verb were really both trans. and intrans. you'd expect more intransitive uses...

[Eyleen]

"计划" should be object,

"该计划将于今年九月启动" be translated as "The plan will be started in this September"

that means, "计划被启动"

[Scoobyqueen]

This is what I ended up going with:

在1890年，几乎与全球第一辆汽车投放市场同时，xxx 先生创建了xx 公司。

[anonymoose]

"计划" should be object,

"该计划将于今年九月启动" be translated as "The plan will be started in this September"

that means, "计划被启动"

The "plan" is the recipient of the action, but grammatically, it is still constitutes a subject in the sentence.

Consider this sentence: "He kicked me." Of course, it is immediately clear which the subject and object are, but we can also identify the subject and object by considering their forms ("he" as opposed to "him", and "me" as opposed to "I"). Now put this into the passive. It becomes "I was kicked by him", not "Me was kicked by he". Clearly, "I" has taken on the roll of subject, even though it is the recipient of the action.

As mentioned in a previous post, Chinese calls this kind of sentence 受事主语句, which translates as something like "affected subject sentence", where the subject of the sentence is the thing affected by the action of the verb.