Minimal pairs involving qingsheng and erhua

[Altair]

I am not exactly sure what you are seeking, since Wenlin's ABC dictionary also has a great many pairs distinguished only by the presence of 轻声, but not so many distinguished by 儿化. Here are a few I can recall offhand or hunt down quickly:

老子 lǎozi n. 〈coll.〉 ①father ②I (used jocularly or in anger) | ∼ bù xìn! I don't believe it.

老子 Lǎo Zǐ n. founder of Daoism

(This may not be an appropriate case, since the first syllable also differs.)

精神

jīngshén* n. ①spirit; mind; consciousness ②essence; gist

jīngshen n. vigor ◆s.v. animated

年时

niánshí n. years; long time

niánshi n. 〈coll.〉 last year

妻子

qīzi* n. wife

qīzǐ n. wife and children

眉目

méimù* n. ①features; looks ②logic; sequence of ideas ③essential ◆attr. near

méimu n. ①prospect of a solution | Nà jiàn shì gānggāng yǒudiǎnr ∼. That matter is just beginning to come into focus. ②order of things

丈夫

zhàngfu* n. husband

zhàngfū n. ①manliness ②brave man

生意

shēngyi* n. ①business; trade | Zuìjìn ∼ zěnmeyàng? How's business lately? ②tendency to grow; life and vitality

shēngyì n. vitality

这 ¹zhè* pr. this ◆adv. now

这儿 zhèr* p.w. 〈coll.〉 ①here ②now

结实

jiēshi s.v. ①strong | Zhèxiē xuésheng ¹gègè ¹zhǎng de hěn ∼. All of these students are strong. ②solid; durable

jiēshí v.o. bear fruit

A related phenomenon you might be interested in is words that have 轻声 alone, but lose it compounds. For instance:

学生 xuésheng

大学生 dàxuéshēng

年成 niáncheng* n. year's harvest

年成本比较法 niánchéngběn bǐjiàofǎ n. 〈acct.〉 annual-cost method of comparison

[chrix]

@altair: great list, thanks!

@Don Horhe: in Taiwan it's read rènshì (and usually not qingsheng either)

@scoobyqueen: I think there was some kind of misunderstanding, but I still think for the beginning student such a list with common words might still prove useful...

[Don_Horhe]

Well, I meant it's shi2 in Standard Putonghua, I don't know anything about the Taiwan variety.

[chrix]

Yeah, sure. One of the reasons I opened this thread was because I felt the need to learn more about the Beijing standard Learning which characters have different pronunciations on each side of the Strait is another project of mine (incidentally, as also has been discussed elsewhere, these prounciations weren't made up in Taiwan, they were originally standard on the mainland after the Xinhai revolution as well, it's just that the Beijing standard evolved subsequently)

[brownbat]

There's a neat discussion of the Beijing "r" on "Beijing Sounds." The post includes some fun sound files of a 6-year old from Beijing giving his thoughts on wán [play] vs. wánr.

The commenters there have some interesting thoughts as well.

Another interesting discussion on this (for me) was the Wikipedia article on Erhau. It has only a few examples, but a good list of rules and situations where it applies.

From Wikipedia:

一瓶 (yìpíng) (one bottle) → 一瓶儿 (yìpíngr), pronounced "yìpírng"

公园 (gōngyuán) (public garden) →　公园儿 (gōngyuánr), pronounced "gōngyuár"

小孩 (xiǎohái) (small child) → 小孩儿 (xiǎoháir), pronounced "xǐaohár"

事 (shì) (thing) → 事儿 (shìr), pronounced "shèr"

It'd be interesting to collate more examples and thread them into that article, maybe make a list article on Wikipedia or Wiktionary.

[chrix]

brownbat, the examples from Wikipedia you cited mean the same thing with or without erhua...

I read that Beijing Sounds post some time ago, it's a classic...

[brownbat]

"the examples from Wikipedia you cited mean the same thing..."

Too true, I got a bit hasty there. This whole erhua thing is all new to me, to tell the truth. Very exciting part of the language to be conscious of as a fresh learner.

[jbradfor]

I can never remember whether the 方 in 地方 is first tone or neutral (fifth) tone. So I went to look it up in MDBG. To my shock, it's BOTH! With different meanings.

Is this correct? If so, are there other words in Chinese for which whether the character goes to neutral tone changes the meaning?

[Later Edit: WOAH! 500th post!]

[chrix]

Yes, there are, and I started a thread on words like this once, have a look here: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/23276-minimal-pairs-involving-qingsheng-and-erhua

[jbradfor]

:oops: :oops:

Google failed me. That, or the fact that I had no idea what qingsheng means. I think I know now from context.

Moderator, feel free to delete this thread.

[chrix]

As far as I can see, 地方 isn't on that thread yet, so why don't you go and add it

[imron]

merged.

[jbradfor]

@chrix

As far as I can see, 地方 isn't on that thread yet, so why don't you go and add it

Actually it is, in the very second post.....

@imron

merged.

Sigh. And I was hoping you'd delete it, but here it is, my google-failure shame for all to see for eternity

[chrix]

well, it's not complete, as there were no meanings provided for the two different readings...

[jbradfor]

picky, picky.....

From MDBG 地方

dì​fāng​ region / regional (away from the central administration)

dì​fang​ area / place / space / room / territory / CL: 處｜处, 個｜个, 塊｜块

The difference, however, is still not fully clear to me. From what I can tell, dì​fāng​ (non-qingsheng) is used for more abstract places (e.g. 地方政府 -- local government), while dì​fang​ (qingsheng) is used for specific places (e.g. 地方停車 -- parking place).

[chrix]

it was just a sincere request I made in post 4:

It'd be great too, if you could provide the translations at the same time (as some examples are two words, the average reader will not find them in their dictionaries). Thanks!

[renzhe]

The difference, however, is still not fully clear to me.

I'd say that "dì​fāng" refers to geographical regions (e.g. inner Mongolia or Guangdong), whereas dì​fang is a general term for any place, like the place you put your book, a bar, a parking place, etc.

[chrix]

Came across another one (in Ba Jin's "Jia"): 江湖 jiānghú rivers and lakes; all places in the country, jiānghu sophisticated and shrewd; quack; wandering, vagrant

EDIT: Looks like it appear twice in the first chapter, and I'm wondering if the first case might be read with qingsheng and the second without. The non-qingsheng version has another meaning that might fit here in the context of the pirates from "Treasure Island": 隱士所居之處。

Edited February 10, 2010 at 01:43 PM by chrix

[renzhe]

I think that 江湖 in the wuxia context also uses qingsheng.

点: spot, speckle, point in time, name of a brush stroke, "a little bit"

点儿: "a little bit" only

明儿 / 今儿 mean tomorrow/today only with the er.

媳妇 = daughter-in-law

媳妇儿 = wife

本 = root, basis, own, capital, book, edition, etc.

本儿 = book, or investment (as in 翻本儿, 扳本儿, 贴本儿 etc.)

One could argue whether 翻本儿 etc are words on their own and that 本儿 isn't used (much) on its own, and that these aren't minimal pairs as a result. But the meaning of 本 is certainly affected here.

Of course, the list is much longer if you allow for different characters, but exact same pronunciation. There, the 儿 often disambiguates in spoken contexts, like that example with:

大火 = big fire

大伙儿 = everyone

You don't need the 儿 in writing, but it is generally used (and considered standard) in Mainland speech to disambiguate.

[chrix]

Are you sure about 江湖？ I'm a bit confused now, because the "vagrant" meaning seems to come from the "all over the country" meaning.

Yeah, I know the list would be longer, but I was looking for the same characters, as this would usually point towards a common origin rather than a coincidence.