Greed, guanxi or ignorance?

[Scoobyqueen]

Several colleagues and I have been approached various times by one persistent Chinese business partner who seems intent we employ one of his former employees as an intern. This person recently moved to Germany to study German. This "request" comes across as somewhat pushy. However, I know this person and find that he could be a good prospect.

I have now identified a potential intern opening and this week invited the candidate for an interview. During the course of the interview, it was apparent that the salary seemed to be more important to him than the job spec.

The salary for an intern is normally provided as a monthly sum, ie everyone knows that when you say 1000 Euros this means per month. However, before I had even finished my sentence the candidate's brain had already worked out what this would equate to per hour. The calculation he had come up with, however, was based on the assumption that this was a weekly salary, not the monthly one I had mentioned and he thus came up with an hourly rate much higher which in this case equates to 20 Euros.

His remark was astonishing "well that is 20 euros an hour which is sort of ok". "sort of ok"!?...well, 20 Euros an hour is high above a German student's expectation and for a Chinese person it ought to be a bloody fortune.

I then explained that this was a monthly figure and his face dropped. I told him this was the normal salary for interns and that I had specifically asked personnel to give me the current rate. His responded insultingly "ok how about asking the managing director instead?"

I am disappointed at this reaction. I dont have a real need that only this person can fulfil and feel I am stretching my budget already in taking him on but feel it will improve guanxi. I am not sure about their motivation. I presume they have some sort of guanxi. I guess the intern is either greedy or completely ignorant about how things work here.

I am curious as to whether this behaviour is normal in China and what may lie behind this apparent "greed" (which I hope it is not).

[Kenny同志]

We get that in China and I hate it. I hate guanxi. It has magic power in China. Things work for you all the way if you have guanxi, but if you do not, you have to pay what is far greater than those who have guanxi do to obtain the same treatment. What a shame on us!!!

[Scoobyqueen]

Things work for you all the way if you have guanxi, but if you do not, you have to pay what is far greater than those who have guanxi do to obtain the same treatment.

Thanks for your response. How does that actually work with socialist ideals? I dont mean socialist in a political but in an idealist sense. Or maybe I am just naive...

[renzhe]

I've found it difficult to explain to people back home that you don't get a million Euro each month for operating an elevator or selling coffee in Germany. It's really difficult for them to grasp. They think all Germans are rich and that money grows on trees.

When they find out how much a university professor earns in Germany, they refuse to believe it. Not that the pay is all that bad, but the expectations are really out of whack, with no relation to reality. Add to this that student interns are among the most shamelessly exploited people in Germany, when comparing their output to what they're getting paid.

This person was probably told fairy tales about what people earn, and has already planned to buy a car after the first two months, and now you've shattered his dream.

[Xiwang]

I'm not clear as to whether this internship was going to be in Germany or in China. However, it sounds as though his expectations have been inflated by the guanxi he thought he had.

Yesterday, the BBC had an article about students in England paying hundreds of Pounds to try to land internships that paid nothing and that required them to live in expensive cities such as London (while hoping that the unpaid internship would eventually lead to a permanent job).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8355714.stm

Today, a friend of mine told me of her job interview this morning with a Chinese food products company. The interview session was filled with scores of Chinese students with graduate law degrees from top Chinese Universities. They were all competing for jobs that only paid 5,000 RMB (US$730) per month.

[Kenny同志]

How does that actually work with socialist ideals? I dont mean socialist in a political but in an idealist sense.

I don't quite understand your point.

By the way, is there any way in which guanxi is different from "connection"? I am just curious.

[chrix]

Yeah I'd be curious to know too... I know a lot of Westerners who got their jobs through guanxi..... but not because they weren't competent, but there's a lot of applicants that are equally qualified, and one thing that makes them stand apart is their guanxi.... I'm not sure how guanxi would work in China in that regard. Would a less competent applicant with more guanxi be preferred over a more competent applicant with less guanxi?

[Kenny同志]

Would a less competent applicant with more guanxi be preferred over a more competent applicant with less guanxi?

I have to admit, yes, and this happens everyday in every part of China.

Sad story.

[roddy]

If you want to take him on for the sake of the guanxi, fair enough, but you could be making a rod for your own back - you may end up with a load of useless interns. If you don't want him, just tell your contact you don't have any suitable positions - he'll hopefully take the hint.

[Scoobyqueen]

From the responses here and from my judgment of the situation I believe this is a case of guanxi. My business partner in China approached me after the interview claiming I had promised the applicant an internship which is not true. I feel I am being forced to take this guy. If this is a case of guanxi I feel like backing out. I have also found out this guy is the son of a government official. The person graduated from Tsinghua. Now I am wondering if is also possible to get into a top uni just using guanxi.

Just to clarify, the Chinese candidate is applying for an internship with a German based company.

How does that actually work with socialist ideals? I dont mean socialist in a political but in an idealist sense.

I don't quite understand your point.

I was raised a socialist (in the west). I am sometimes surprised at what appears to be non-socialist behaviour in China (and again I dont mean it in a political sense). But I guess it is probably easier to be a socialist in the west.

Edited November 26, 2009 at 08:27 PM by Scoobyqueen

[imron]

I have also found out this guy is the son of a government official. The person graduated from Tsinghua.

haha, no wonder his face dropped at 1,000 euros a month. I'm guessing he has a highly inflated sense of self-worth. Keep the offer at 1,000 euros. If he refuses, go back to your contact and say you bent over backwards trying to get him the internship and then when he was given the offer, he refused it because he wasn't prepared to work as an intern, causing you to lose much face among your colleagues after you had convinced them to accept him etc etc (the last part might not be strictly true, but it doesn't hurt to emphasize you went out of your way to help and then that offer of help was knocked back. You could even say that initially the company was only going to offer 800 euros or something and you managed to convince them to offer 1,000 etc).

You might need to explain as well to your contact that internships by their nature aren't paid very well and there's not much you can do about the rate offered, however the important thing is not the money, but what you can learn, and building up contacts, which this person didn't seem prepared to do etc.

Often guanxi is not just about getting things done, but looking like you made an effort to get things done. If the person you were asked to help knocks that back, it's not your fault and you still get your guanxi credits.

Edited November 26, 2009 at 10:13 PM by imron

[Hero Doug]

I really like the above advice.

Also, you said that this guy is a business partner; what can he do to your business if your relationship goes sour. I've found that people will go pretty far (as far as shooting themselves in the foot) just to save face. It might be something to think about.

[gato]

From the responses here and from my judgment of the situation I believe this is a case of guanxi. My business partner in China approached me after the interview claiming I had promised the applicant an internship which is not true. I feel I am being forced to take this guy. If this is a case of guanxi I feel like backing out. I have also found out this guy is the son of a government official.

Your business partner is probably trying to earn "guanxi" with the government official by helping the official's son with an internship.

Whether there is a "guanxi" quid pro quo between you and your business partner is not clear from your description.

Edited November 27, 2009 at 05:27 AM by gato

[Xiwang]

Fair or not, what this young man wants does not seem to comport with the custom of the marketplace.

In the area of law, German graduates typically spend a half year or a full year abroad working on an unpaid internship. My law firm used to take one every year or two. (I always enjoyed taking them sightseeing and doing things with them that they could not do in Europe, such as shooting firearms at a gun range.)

One small law firm in California that specialized in German-related clients staffed its firm primarily with these interns. After six months of free labor, the interns would get a letter of recommendation and then make room for the next batch of interns.

One thousand Euros per month isn't enough to do a lot of nightclubing in Berlin or Munich. However, it's a lot better than zero.

[Kenny同志]

I have also found out this guy is the son of a government official. The person graduated from Tsinghua. Now I am wondering if is also possible to get into a top uni just using guanxi.

Few of government officials’ children, especially top officials’, do not go to national top universities, if not international top ones. So are they more competent than their counterparts from ordinary families? I doubt a lot. They can go there not because of their competence, in most cases, it is because they have influential parents or relatives, etc. who have guanxi. And this angers many.

[HashiriKata]

The OP is operating between two kinds of cultures, where there are different patterns of practice and understanding. I 'd still respect her whichever pattern she would opt to follow (when there is a conflict). However, It's unethical to bring cases like this to discuss in a public forum. I find it smacks of self-importance and betrayal.

[gougou]

Imron, as usual, gives great advice.

I would just like to add that if you're thinking of hiring him only to earn your business partner's business, you are supporting a custom which you don't seem to approve of.

[gato]

Well, it's all anonymous, so I think it's fine.

[Scoobyqueen]

It's unethical to bring cases like this to discuss in a public forum

I am not sure I understand your point. What is unethical about it?

I find it smacks of self-importance

isnt posting on the internet? full stop:wink:

Well, it's all anonymous, so I think it's fine.

Obviously the details have been disguised. And my business partner wont know what a scoob is.

I would just like to add that if you're thinking of hiring him only to earn your business partner's business, you are supporting a custom which you don't seem to approve of.

You are right.

Thanks Imron for your advice. Seems like a win-win and probably similar to how a Chinese would play it.

I am probably going to be a wimp and blame the financial crisis as the reason why I cant take him on.

Edited November 27, 2009 at 10:08 AM by Scoobyqueen

[gougou]

I am probably going to be a wimp and blame the financial crisis as the reason why I cant take him on.

If I was your prospective customer, I'm not sure that's what I would like to hear.