Working without a working visa

[loyal_royal]

Hi

I know the visa issues have come up alot here and I have read through these forums a bit but a couple of questions still come to mind and there is some confliction.

Realistically how important is it to have a degree to get a working visa as a teacher if you are to enrol with, for example will-TESOL institute? I notice organisations like this saying you can be paid by sponsor schools while you train with them, surely this is illegal if you don't have a working visa? so how is it they take on people with no degree and no experience? Have I missed a loop-hole? Or is it just that second tier cities turn a blind eye?

What's the worst that can happen if you are caught teaching for money without a working visa? are you ok as long as you can afford a flight home a.s.a.p?

I would love to go to China and teach English but I would have to be earning money so as to service debt here in the UK. That is another question, how realistic is to want to be sending £250 a month home roughly? I have read that a lot of people save this kind of money and still live fairly well in China if the school provides a place to live. Is banking between China and your home Country easy? I have read that you normally get paid in cash, would that make my situation difficult? also if I don't have a working visa would I need to avoid paying in to banks or even having a bank account in order not to fall foul of the officials?

Sorry for all the questions, any answers on anything would be great!

[ammcknockiter]

this is all the questions i want answered lol

[driftman]

hey,

I havent taught for some time, but as far as I know:

1) nobody everr checks what kind of visa you have in China. I know people who have worked here for years on tourist visas. The only question is how often you need to renew it. I wouldnt worry too much about it.

2) I think if you teach privately full time, sending 250 Pounds (they arent worth much anymore anyways) and having plenty of beer money should not really be a problem.

3) Not sure regarding the degree thing. Things seem to have changed in the last few years, so probably someone with some more recent experience should comment on that.

[liuzhou]

This has been covered before on many other threads. Please search before posting!

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/23285-working-in-china-without-a-degree-is-it-illegal

[kdavid]

Realistically how important is it to have a degree to get a working visa as a teacher

Many schools in many parts of China require a BA in order to process a work residence permit. Many schools can process legal working papers and issue a legal working visa without a BA. Simply put, the demand for English teachers in China is too high for schools to only take teachers with BAs.

However, most schools that will take you without a BA, experience or a TESOL are most likely desperate for teachers. These are not the kind of schools that you want to work for.

for example will-TESOL institute? I notice organisations like this saying you can be paid by sponsor schools while you train with them, surely this is illegal if you don't have a working visa?

Firstly, I'm assuming that you meant to write Will-Excel TESOL Institute, which I am affiliated with. I don't know of any other TESOL training institutes in China named "will-TESOL".

Secondly, it is clearly mentioned on the website that you participate in a month of training and then go onto a school for your teaching term. All teachers who enroll under the sponsored option with one of our sponsor schools are issued a legal working visa. Some teachers participate in our program on a tourist visa, and then move on to do other things such as travel or work in another country.

There is nothing illegal about participating in the training course on a tourist visa. As mentioned above, all teachers who go on to teach at one of our sponsor schools are issued a legal work residence permit.

so how is it they take on people with no degree and no experience?

Most teachers participating in any TESOL course will not have any teaching experience. The nature of a TESOL course is to train and certify someone to become an ESL teacher.

how realistic is to want to be sending £250 a month home roughly?

At today's rate, that's about 2770 RMB, which would be about half your salary in most places. As long as you're living frugally, sending this much money home each month would not be a problem.

Is banking between China and your home Country easy?

You'll need to wire the money home each month. It's not difficult as long as you have someone who can speak Chinese help you out. Some Western Unions may have English-speaking staff.

also if I don't have a working visa would I need to avoid paying in to banks or even having a bank account in order not to fall foul of the officials?

You shouldn't work for any school that is not willing (or able) to issue you a valid work residence permit. If the school cannot legally hire foreigners, then they're likely to cut other corners as well, which could lead to a bad experience.

[loyal_royal]

Thanks for the replies!

KDavid - Your website does make it clear that if you take up the sponsored option you will spend a teaching term in a school but I would argue that it is not at all clear that all your sponsored students are issued a working visa for this. From your site -

You will enter China either on a tourist visa or work visa. Once you begin your teaching term, this will need to be converted into a work resident permit. Whether you apply for a tourist or a work visa depends on your employer. (Details provided with employment offer.)

You can apply for a 90 day visa at the nearest Chinese consulate or embassy. If you`re not close to one, there are companies that you can find on-line which will process your application for you.

That to me says that you may or may not get a working visa - it depends on what school you get and what their offer is. Also is the conversion to Work resident permit also provided for all students working in one of your partner schools? It says it needs to be done but will it be done? I have read that alot of schools make false promises regarding this and China is a heck of a long way to go to arrive at broken promises!

I'm purely offering feedback on your site to you as someone who is part of your target market.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

[kdavid]

I would argue that it is not at all clear that all your sponsored students are issued a working visa for this.

To clarify: a working visa only gets you in the country. It does not allow you to lawfully work in China. What allows you to lawfully work in China is the work residence permit.

Most schools arrange for their teachers to enter on a Z visa, others on a tourist visa.

From our site, as the OP cited above:

You will enter China either on a tourist visa or work visa. Once you begin your teaching term, this will need to be converted into a work resident permit. Whether you apply for a tourist or a work visa depends on your employer. (Details provided with employment offer.)

It is clearly mentioned on our site that regardless of the visa you enter the country on, our sponsor schools will convert that visa to a lawful work resident permit, which allows you to lawfully work in China.

A Z visa must be converted to a work resident permit within 30 days of entry. No one can work in China on a Z visa alone. As stated above, and on our website, all of our sponsor schools do this.

Also is the conversion to Work resident permit also provided for all students working in one of your partner schools? It says it needs to be done but will it be done?

All of the schools which offer our teachers sponsored positions will issue their sponsored teachers a work resident permit.

I have read that alot of schools make false promises regarding this and China is a heck of a long way to go to arrive at broken promises!

There are dozens of video testimonials linked to from our site which affirm everything advertised is indeed provided before, during and after the course. We add new testimonials throughout the year.

[valikor]

I don't think having a "residence permit" means it's legal for you to work in China (work being defined as receiving financial compensation). You'll need a Work Visa as well as a Residence Permit. (You can get a residence permit while on a business visa too, and maybe also a tourist visa, but you can't get paid for whatever you're doing).

That being said, I don't think it actually matters.. but you asked about the law.

[liuzhou]

I don't think having a "residence permit" means it's legal for you to work in China

That is precisely what it means.

You can get a residence permit while on a business visa too, and maybe also a tourist visa

No you can't. Are you confusing a Residence Permit with registering your place of residence? Not the same.

A Residence Permit replaces the work visa which is only an entrance visa (and must be done within 30 days of entry) and then acts as a multi-entry visa and work permit. When the Residence Permit is issued the Z-visa is cancelled. You can't have (and don't need) both. I haven't had a visa for years. Here is a residence permit. It is stuck in the passport like a visa.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/Liuzhou/website/residencepermithn8-1.jpg

The procedure is clearly laid out in the leaflet I posted on the other thread on virtually the same topic here.

Here is the advisory on the British Government website. The US and other governments have issued similar warnings.

"An increasing number of British nationals are becoming attracted to opportunities to teach English in China. Most of those who do so have an extremely positive and enjoyable experience. However, some have experienced difficulties. The most common problems encountered arise from being faced with living or working conditions that do not meet expectations and complications over obtaining the correct visas and residence permits. There have also been complaints of breach of contract, confiscation of passports and of payment being withheld.

If you wish to take up a teaching appointment in China you are advised to contact the nearest Chinese Embassy for information on obtaining the appropriate documentation. It is illegal to work on a tourist or business visa. Thorough research on the educational establishment and the area in which you intend to work will pay dividends. Further information can be found in the consular area of the website of the British Embassy Beijing."

Edited December 28, 2009 at 11:10 AM by liuzhou

[imron]

That is precisely what it means.

Although sometimes not, if you get one on a student X visa. The "Purpose of Residence" field is important here. Other than that, agree completely.

[mcgau]

Just read an adv on the bulletin board in Sichuan today:

RMB3000-5000/month + medical insurance + housing allowance for English teacher in Sichuan.

RMB5000-7000/month + medical + housing allowance in Xian.

has to be a native speaker and degree holder. Certificate for teaching english as a second language is desirable but not required.

[valikor]

I should admit my mistake and say that lilzhou and kdavid were right (as far as I now understand). There is a difference between a "Residence Permit" and a "Registration Form of Temporary Residence", and this was what I was confusing (as lilzhou guessed).

Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding.

Edited December 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM by valikor
typo